Full Transcript

Sari 0:00
Welcome to your Food Business Success. This podcast is for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged food industry ready to finally turn that delicious idea into reality. I'm your host Sari Kimbell, I have guided hundreds of food brand founders to success as an industry expert and business coach. And it's gotta be fun. In this podcast, I share with you mindset tools to become a true entrepreneur and run your business like a boss, interviews with industry experts to help you understand the business you are actually in, and food founder journeys so you can learn what worked and didn't work, and not feel so alone in your own journey. Now, let's jump in.

Sari 0:48
Welcome back to the podcast. So glad you're here with me today. This episode was an amazing one for me to record. And I really think it's going to be one of those episodes where you're like, oh, my life before this and then after, and I think you're gonna think about things a little bit differently. And I really hope give you some perspective. And honestly, it comes at the perfect time. If you are listening to this on the Tuesday that it airs. That means that we are just two days away from the Hard Times Ahead call. And this is a call with me where I am going to talk with you about some mindset tools to help you manage these challenging times, especially around price increases. And also some strategy to implement in your business that I think will help you once we calm down our systems a little bit, for you to actually make smart decisions that are going to set you up for long term success. So I hope you will join me on that call. The link is in the show notes or you can go to foodbizsuccess.com/hardtimes. And this call is totally free. It's something that is in response to members and one-on-one clients sending me emails of panic and worry. And I wanted to give this gift to everyone. And the reason why I say it's such a perfect link with this episode. So I am talking with a coach, colleague of mine, Kathy Zhang, and she is a palliative care doctor. Those kinds of doctors are very special to me, in my heart. These physicians really help people who are receiving a terminal illness diagnosis and help the families make decisions. So in my case, unfortunately my father never woke up from the brain scan that they did. And so we met with a palliative care doctor or physician who really helped us as a family to navigate that and make the decisions. And I really credit both my father having a living will, really was very helpful, but then also that physician to really keep us together as a family and make that time as relatively easy as possible. Certainly a lot less stressful than it could have been. And so you might be asking yourself, what on earth does this have to do with starting a packaged food business? Well, I am definitely a real believer, as I have embraced entrepreneurship that stoicism has really helped me to ground myself and to give me some perspective. And so stoicism, I guess in its essence is really a philosophy, a practice of allowing and it is what it is, and just not resisting things so much. And there is a phrase in stoicism called Memento Mori. And this is an ancient stoic term for keeping death always on your mind to fully value and appreciate this moment. I just think that there is a lot of value to be gained, not in a morbid sense, not like panicky like I could die at any moment. But keeping it there on your mind to give you perspective that this life is really short. We actually don't have that much time. And we're really just like little blips, like in the 13.8 billion years that the Earth has been around, right? And Kathy has an amazing podcast called The Purpose Filter that I started listening to. She's in a mastermind group that I'm in and I just really love her podcast. I've gotten a lot from it. And so I want to share this with you, these concepts with you. And again, I think it's actually perfect timing. I know we're all feeling some heightened anxiety and, you know, nerves and and worry as we head into the rest of this year as we're still dealing with inflation and that can really be wreaking havoc on your business. So I really hope this podcast is helpful for you. And please do get yourself registered for that call or you will be able to access the replay for 48 hours. So it's foodbizsuccess.com/hardtimes. And without further ado, on with the podcast interview.

Sari 5:31
All right, Kathy, I'm so excited that you're here today. Welcome to the podcast.

Kathy 5:38
Thank you so much, Sari. So excited to be here, for having me on.

Sari 5:43
I'm excited about our conversation today, I think it can definitely, we'll go on a couple different directions. But as I mentioned to you before we started recording, I just want to thank you for the work that you do in the world and other palliative care doctors out there. It's something you hope nobody ever needs. But we, you know, we worked with one when my father had a stroke, and we had to take him off life support. And man, 11 bodies trying to make decisions for somebody on life support. I'm so grateful for that doctor. So thank you for doing the work that you do in the world.

Kathy 6:22
Thank you. And you know, I can imagine what you all went through. But you know, we're just happy to support you all during those challenging times. So thank you for sharing that.

Sari 6:34
Yeah. All right. So let's talk about your experience. And what you see, I did Episode 97, I did a podcast about using regret to make decisions. And so from your lens, what do people regret the most? And then what are some tools and strategies that you offer people based on your experience?

Kathy 7:02
Yeah, totally. It's a great question. I was gonna mention that too, because I was listening back. And I was like, oh, this is a great episode. Because we do commonly see regret at the end of life. And some of the most common ones that I see are like people who feel like they didn't do everything in their power to live the life that they really wanted. You know, I think a lot of people, it's really easy when you're, I don't know, working a nine to five, or you're just going about your daily routine to just get stuck in this autopilot cycle. And then you wake up one day, and you're like, oh, my God, or something happens that jolts you out of it. And you're like, what am I doing? Is this really the life that I want to live? Am I doing something that's meaningful? Am I doing something that is fulfilling to me? Am I doing something that I'm passionate about? And I think your listeners can relate to that too especially if they're either early on their journey, or they haven't quite started and they're thinking like, should I do this? Should I go into this? Should I? Should I? And there's that fear that's so strong when we're pursuing, you know, starting a business, or starting something new, or making a transition. And I think a lot of people get caught up in that. And then the regret piece is so powerful to be like, okay, well, in my head, in this future version of myself that I really want to be is doing this or not doing this something that I'm gonna regret? Is it something that I, you know, am letting fear of failure or whatever it is be a roadblock for me to actually do the thing that I'm really passionate about? And so I think that's one thing that all of us can probably really get behind is just trying to make something of this life that we have, of the time that we have. And so that was one thing that really came to mind when you first asked me that question.

Sari 9:07
You have a great post, I was looking through your Instagram. It says something like, we all have two lives. Say the rest of it because it was so good. I don't have it in front of me.

Kathy 9:18
Yeah, it was, uh, I think his name was, I think the audio was from, like Naval Ravikant. And he said, we all have two lives. The second one starts when you realize you only have one. And it's so true. Because when people come to see me, they realize what's important to them. And sometimes, and for a lot of those people, it's too late. And so the purpose of me starting the podcast and all this stuff was to really shift all of those lessons upstream 20, 30, 40 years, so that we don't have to go through a traumatic event or the loss of a loved one, or something even like COVID to make us, take a step back and be like, oh my God, what's actually important to me? And how do I want to spend my time?

Sari 10:09
And that was a big one, I know I saw with COVID. And I remember for me after 911, that was a big shifter for me. I think probably if I think about the biggest, those events that are life changing, I think 911 and then the death of my father. And then I think COVID to some extent, but I did definitely see that shifting of people with COVID, where you were like, whoa, what's happening? And people starting to question what's important to me here. And you know, what have I always wanted to do and people are experimenting in their kitchens as well. It's like the perfect storm for starting a food business especially.

Kathy 10:56
Totally, totally.

Sari 10:59
Do you think we're losing the lessons of like COVID? Like, what happens there? Because I feel like at the beginning, you know, there was a big like, people were like, yes. Why have I been spending all my time on this nine to five when I have this little passion over here I want to develop? But what do you think your, are you seeing that?

Kathy 11:20
I think that's such a great question. And it's really insightful too because humans are so adaptable, right? Like something happens and it's this global pandemic, and we're like, oh, my God, what do I do, I have to rethink everything. And then after two years, you kind of just like, alright, well, this is the way that the world works, you know, and we get so used to it. And I think that's why I love talking about purpose, and being intentional with everything that we're doing, and really keeping these things at the forefront. And keeping the end in mind, even though it's uncomfortable, even though we don't want to talk about it. Because unless we're intentional with these thoughts, with what we actually want to do, and actually thinking about our life going forward, it's so easy to just get wrapped up in it. And to just say, okay, well, you know, we're going to be half virtual and half in person. And, you know, there's daycare pickups, and I have to take care of my own health and all these things that are unnecessary part of life. But if we just let it run without knowing what we're actually doing without having a purpose, without having a deep compelling why, then I think it's just like, okay, this is it. And this is my life and, you know, that sort of thing. And so that was a great question because it's just so easy to get wrapped up in it and to lose sight of why you started doing this stuff in the first place. Why there was a dream and planted in your head of starting a packaged food business, because not everyone wants to do that, right?

Sari 12:28
I think people who come to me as like, they just kind of assume that everybody wants to do a business like, and I'm like, no, you're not. This is not normal. I mean, it's wonderful. And which is a great segue to talking about like, when should you do it? Like you have that little voice in your head. And you know, you're an entrepreneur as well, you're a life coach, and you coach high achieving women, and, but you're also a doctor, and you went to school for a really long time to do it. So how do you know if you should? Or how do you kind of take those first steps?

Kathy 13:48
That's a great question, you know, what I realized for me, because my identity was so wrapped up in my job, especially, you know, if your clients and your listeners have a nine to five, that, you know, they went to school for, training for, something like that. My identity was so wrapped up in being a physician that when something goes wrong with that, like COVID, like, you know, whatever it was, it really just tore me up on the inside. And I think one thing is that a lot of people even when you're in an entrepreneurial pursuit, when you're in the business, you know, a lot of people get wrapped up. I mean like my business does well, I'm well. If my business does poorly, I'm not doing well. So one of the things I recommend is to, one, whether you're starting a business, whether you're thinking about it, whether you're in your own job is to have more of an identity that's beyond what you're doing, beyond what you're trying to create. You're not your job, you're not your business. And so that's one thing to help with that. And the other thing is, there's no should, right? There's no when should I do it? Am I too old? Am I too young? Do I not know enough? One thing that I see so commonly with my patients is that like they come to the end of their life and they're just like, you know, there was no way I could have predicted the course of my life. There was no way I could have just been like, oh, that was the path. And of course, you know, like, et cetera, et cetera. There's no step. There's no syllabus, let's say an entrepreneurial pursuits. Like, I went to med school, I pass my classes, there's a syllabus, you do that, you graduate, you get a degree. But there's no, there's none of that in business. And I think for a lot of people that's so scary, because they don't know how, they don't know the way, and they let that be so paralyzing that they don't even start. And there's this quote that I love by E. L. Doctorow. And he wrote, I think it was written about writing a novel. But it's basically like, you know, how, when you're driving at night, you can only see as far as your headlights, but you can make the entire trip that way. And so, that applies to anything, just beyond writing a novel. You may not know what the entire path of starting a packaged food businesses but if you just know the next step, if you just know the next step, and you do that, and you do that, that will take you further than you can ever imagine. And then get the help, you know, hire coaches and, you know, talk to people in the industry, surround yourself with a community. That is, you know, so so important. But there's no should, if you feel that there's something there, if you feel a calling, it was put into your head, into your heart for a reason, whether you want to call it God, the universe, that sort of thing. You know, so, if you think about it, if you keep thinking about it, just make some moves, do some research, get the courses, learn, and take it from there.

Sari 17:12
It's so amazing. I mean, life in general, even though we try to plan it, and some people are, you know, very, like, I'm gonna go to school, I'm gonna get this degree, I'm going to be a lawyer, I'm going to be a doctor. Be a professor, whatever it is, and they think like, I think as humans, we like predictability, right? We're trying to put everything in a little box. And then, it can be a little bit nerve wracking to think, well, I'm gonna throw all that out the window or do anything like that but to start a business, but I think, life in general, like, life throws us curveballs all the time, right? From COVID to somebody in our family getting sick, or, you know, kids, big plan that like really throw your life into a lot of curveballs. So, yeah, I mean, we all have this opportunity to look back on our life and say, you know, even though I tried to plan it, like it was this big, giant roller coaster of ups and downs and things that I never could have predicted, but later on entrepreneurship, and that's a whole other level. It's a whole other choice of saying, I'm going to choose a life that is, like, our coach likes to say what you get the gift of how at the end, like you just don't know.

Kathy 18:34
Yes, exactly, exactly. And it's just part of being human, right? It's their challenges every single day, and especially being a business owner. It's so like, you know, one day you're like, okay, cool. I learned this and the next you're just like, I have no friggin idea what I'm doing. Why did I start this? Why'd I get myself into this? I must be, you know, a glutton for punishment. But I think, you know, one other thing that I wanted to share was knowing your why and your purpose is so so key. That having a strong and compelling why will get you through so many downtime, so many challenges. And, you know, I was thinking about it, food, but you know, it's so easy when we're in our business, or whatever it is, it's so easy to just be like, I'm one of our life coach, or I'm in the package food business or that sort of thing. But if you step back and you're like, why did I really get into this in the first place? You know, let's say for example, for your clients, food is not just food, right? Food is nourishment. Food is sustenance, food is nutrition, food is connection. Food is love. And I think it's really easy to get down in the weeds of it and just be like, I just need to find, you know, a good manufacturer or like I just need to get this to market or I just needed to get in Whole Foods, but you know, if you can find, remember why you're doing this, and make that super strong, super compelling. That's going to get you through so many, so many tough times.

Sari 20:16
Yeah, I mean, I say that all the time, you gotta know your why, and how do you define purpose? Or how would you kind of, somebody was like, I don't know, what's my purpose? Not quite sure.

Kathy 20:28
So the, it's simple, but it's not easy to execute. For me, the purpose of anyone's life is to just be the most authentic and best version of yourself. And the way that I see that is, I use this example, I have a hairstylist who just loves hair, she is so obsessed with it, she goes to conferences all the time, she talks about color, cut, styles, whatever. And by her being so authentic to herself, and what her passions are, she's able to have an impact on her clients and on the world, and how people see themselves and that sort of thing. And you think, oh, it's just hair or whatever. But, you know, to her, that is what she can bring to the world. And I think it's the same thing for anyone else, whether we're on in medicine, whether I'm coaching, whether your clients are doing their own thing, or, you know, they're trying to bring a product to market, if you can be authentic to your values, your integrity, what's important to you, and then live your life in that way. That I think is the easiest way, the fastest way to figure out your purpose. And I think a lot of people are like, what is it? What is it? What is it? Purpose isn't something that is found for me, in what I've seen. Purpose is created, you can't just think your way to what your purpose is, you need to do things. You need to go out there, you need to experiment, you need to try all sorts of different experiences so that when you get to the end, and you're able to look back, that's when people are like, oh, I know why I was here. I know why. Because when you're living through it, it's hard to be able to sort that out. It's only when you're able to have the gift of introspection, of looking back, that's when you will really know that the purpose of your life is to do as much as you can that is aligned with who you are, to be able to then have so many experiences, at the end to look back and be like, oh, yeah, that's why I was here.

Sari 22:41
I love that because I really struggled. And I'm sure other people feel that way too where I just struggle. I'm like, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? Like, I feel like my whole 20s and 30s were running around feeling so distraught and so like suffering so much because I was trying to find my purpose. And I think there was a shift in my 40s, where it was like, yeah, you have a little bit longer lens to look back on your life but also realizing like, you know, why am I trying to, I was trying to find that one thing, like, you know, if I become a doctor, or whatever, you know, I want to have like thing that is, you know, I watch my brother be very like, you know, I'm an engineer, I'm a computer scientist, this is what I do. And that goes actually back to your statement earlier about your identity. And when you wrap up your identity so much in your work, you know, your title. That's where it can get really tricky. Because I was looking for it out there and then kind of realizing like, wait, I just want to contribute, and I want to use my gifts. And I know other people are feeling that way too. And so I think that's such a good way to look at purpose.

Kathy 23:59
Yeah, and I think, you know, purposely you said that it comes in phases. I like to think of life as chapters. You know, when we're in our 20s and 30s, we have a certain way of living and thinking. And that isn't always the same as when we're in our 40s, 50s, and 60s, and beyond. So it's okay to have, you know, one chunk of your life and be like, the purpose of my 20s was to do this or to study or to, you know, learn or just hang out with my friends or whatever it is, and then to be like, okay, well I'm in a different phase of life, I'm in a different chapter of my life. And now my purpose is maybe to do this, to be a parent, or to start a business, or to, you know, contribute and teach the younger generation, whatever it is. And so, I don't think it should needs to be this one thing for your entire life. It should be more mutable and flexible.

Sari 24:57
And I was listening to a podcast with the, I guess, the editor of Entrepreneur Magazine, and he was talking about that too, about people who did, who actually thrived with COVID were ones that weren't so attached to their identity that it was like, you know, instead of like, I'm a doctor, that's all I know, that's what I am. It was like, you know, I serve people, like people had a bigger mission and bigger purpose, like I'm here to help people, I'm contributing, you know, things like that, versus like, this one function. So I think for people listening, you know, it's the difference between, I make salsa like to, like I am, you know, helping people have a better experience, you know, create connection, things like that, where you can do that, no matter what's going on in the outside world.

Kathy 25:50
Exactly. Just reframing it into something that's more powerful and compelling, right? You're giving people energy to be able to do the things that they really want to do. And doing it in a way that's nutritious and sustainable, or whatever it is that's important to you. And so that reframe and the mindset is so so important.

Sari 26:12
I know one of the things that comes up for people, especially, you know, I do work with all people who have nine to five jobs, and, again, things they've trained for and spent a lot of investment in. How can, how do I say this? Let's say from your experience like, let's say, your business as an entrepreneur, quote, unquote, fails, right? Or like you decide to shut it down? How can we look at that? Because I think people are so worried about that, right? Like, yeah, but what if I start it and it fails? It doesn't? You know, doesn't live up to the expectations. But how do you think that that makes us a better person? Like how are you a better person just because of the pursuit of it? And even a better doctor, a better mother, a better spouse?

Kathy 27:09
There's a lot to unpack there. And that's such a great question because it's one of the biggest reasons why people don't start is just the fear. Right? And I think a lot of times, you know, one thing that helped me was to think like, okay, well, what if it doesn't work out? And the other on the flip side is like, well, what if it does? So that's nice. But then some people are like, no, no, but what if it really doesn't work out? And there's this, there's this video clip of Oprah, she's one of my idols, I think on 60 minutes, and it was back in like the 80s, or 90s. Like when she was really first starting, I think, The Oprah Winfrey Show, and they were asking her, you know, what, you're doing this, it's new, etc, what if it doesn't work out? What if it doesn't do well? And she says, well then I will be okay. I will still be fine. And it, you know, because she says that my worth isn't defined by how well a show does. My worth isn't defined by whether people tune in. And so that for me, it was just so so amazing to really be like, okay, how can I detach my own self-worth, from the consequences, from the results, from the outcome? And being able to have that kind of distance from it. And again, just being like, you're not your business, you are an entrepreneur, you're a business owner, you are not this thing that you've created. Like it's a part of you, it's part of your story and what you're doing in the world but that's not the only reason why you exist. And so I think one is really detaching yourself from those results and having a strong sense of yourself. And then the other thing, I interview a lot of people who have gone through challenges and things like that. And they all say that, I would never, I would never wish, what I went through on my worst enemy. But they all say, it has made me a stronger person. It has made me the person who I am today. And so I think that's a really great lesson to just be like, you know what? These pursuits, they are ways to build character. All right. I think Sylvia Plath said, I love rejections, rejections for me are a sign of action, right? If something fails, it means I did something, quote unquote, fails because failures, you know how we perceive things, but it's you're not going to be able to learn by just sitting there thinking about it, dreaming of owning a packaged food business, you have to go out there and try and do and you're going to come up with hardships, you're going to come against obstacles. It's really trusting in your own resourcefulness. And saying, I may not know the right way, because there may not be a right way. But I trust that no matter what happens, I will be able to deal with it in a way that is, you know, true to who I am. And that makes sense for me.

Sari 30:23
In coaching, we talked about having your own backs. So going into an endeavors something listening, you're like, maybe I'm thinking about those, like deciding ahead of time that you are going to, like, no matter what happens, you're gonna learn from it. I mean, you're basically saying you're inviting in hardship. Anybody who thinks like, I will just make my coffee, or my kombucha or whatever, and it's just going to, you know, create this amazing, profitable business without me having to do any work. That would be unrealistic. So you're, you're inviting in hardship by by becoming an entrepreneur, which are all the things that help build our character and create a more rewarding and rich life too. And we're deciding ahead of time, like no matter what the outcome, I'm okay, just like you mentioned, Oprah said, it's so good.

Kathy 31:21
Exactly. And I love, you know, you were just interviewing Justin from, you know, Justin's, and I love that story. And I also really love Sara Blakely from Spanx like her journey too because you just listen to them. And they like how many roadblocks were in their path, right? Just, you know, even for Justin to just like, okay, you won't let me be in Whole Foods, like, I will stock it myself, like you won't let me do that, I will just, I'll come and do whatever it takes, right? Like I'm gonna give out samples, I'm gonna do this. And it is a tough, tough journey. And, you know, at the same time, it is so worth it. Like, if you've genuinely feel that your product is going to impact people's lives and your product is going to help people, then you also you almost have like a moral duty to be able to do everything within your power to get that product in someone's hands, right? If Sara Blakely hadn't been like, I'm convinced that this product is going to, you know, help women with their confidence and, you know, help them look better and feel better then we wouldn't have Spanx, we wouldn't have that product, that for so many people is like a total necessity. And it's the same thing with the foods that we eat, the drinks that we consume. So, you know, for anyone who is out there just being like, oh, I don't know, I'm scared. If you truly believe in your product, then you have to do it. You have to do it because there are going to be people out there who need it.

Sari 33:00
And life is gonna keep giving you the lessons to learn whether you, you know, shove that little thought, that little nudge down deep, I think life will continue to give you those lessons to learn. And they may be things that you don't choose as much. And I think being an entrepreneur, at the very least helps build your resilience and in life in general. I know for me, I feel like I can roll with things so much easier through the lessons of entrepreneurship.

Kathy 33:36
Totally, I just, I feel like I'm a stronger person because of it. And, you know, as a kid, my dad was always like you are so like, in a sense, you know, soft, because I'm so emotional, I cried everything and he's just like, fuck up, you know? And, and now I'm able to, you know, just take things with a grain of salt and let it roll.

Sari 34:03
How, in addition to making decisions, I do think regret is a very powerful tool to use not to beat ourselves up but to to look back or, you know, say would I regret not doing this? Because I think in that book, Daniel Pink and I would imagine your experience, as well, talks about, you know, we generally don't regret the things that we tried, even if they failed. We regret the things that we didn't try at all, put any effort. Is that, could have been your experience since you worked with people?

Kathy 34:42
Yeah, totally. You know, no one ever gets to the end of life. And it's like, I'm so glad that I, you know, spent 40 years at a job that I didn't like, doing things that weren't fulfilling to me. Everyone always says it's like, I'm so glad that I took that trip that I've always wanted to take and cross that off my bucket list. I'm so glad that I tried, I'm so glad that I lived. I'm so glad that my heart broken because otherwise, I never would have been able to experience love, and that sort of thing. And so, you know, I like to think of regret also for the things that maybe we've made mistakes in the past. Not to think of regret as like, oh, I'm going to beat myself up. But to think about is like, okay, if I regret something, or I think I'm going to regret something, what's the lesson that I can learn from it? What's the lesson in that experience, or that missed opportunity that I can apply to my life moving forward, because it's not about, like you said, putting yourself down and being negative, it's about using it as a tool to inform your decisions going forward, and to enrich your life in a positive way. Keeping that in mind.

Sari 36:02
It just popped into my head that like how we are compassionate with ourselves in this moment now about past things is going to, like if we're totally beating ourselves up on a past decision, then yeah, of course, it's going to be a lot scarier to start something. Because, however, you're feeling right now you're projecting that you're going to feel that way. You know, if you do this riskier thing, and it fails, right? Versus like, we can use regret. And in the moment of like, giving ourselves a lot more compassion and learning the lesson but then also saying, and I'm human, like I make mistakes, you're kind of training yourself, you're teaching, you know, you're like reassuring yourself that in the future, if you do this riskier thing that you'll be kind to yourself.

Kathy 36:18
Yeah, 100%. And, you know, we all make mistakes, that's just a part of life. It's a part of, like you said, being human and the human experience. And we have the opportunity that if we were burned in the past, to learn from it and be like, okay, well, maybe it wasn't me per se, but maybe it was, you know, how I went about it, or the partner that I chose or, you know, whatever it is, is to think back and be like, okay, how can I make this better for next time so that it isn't as risky or so that doesn't go under. And, you know, that's something that we can all do.

Sari 37:30
You know, we talked about, like the experience that you're going to look back on, and it's going to be ups and downs. And you know, you are basically inviting in a little more hardship and opportunities to build resilience. But I think, the first few years of my journey, before finding some of these life coaching tools that I use now, I was like, I mean, my whole identity was wrapped up in it, my achievement, it was kind of miserable. And it was not really, I was not having any fun, for sure. I was like, really motivating myself with self loathing, you know, the future, I'm going to beat myself up if I don't do this perfectly in this way. And this can go for life in general to not just a business, but what are some strategies to kind of enjoy that roller coaster of life that we ended up living? And like I said, inviting more more of that in being an entrepreneur, but from your experience, yeah, what are some things, some tools and strategies?

Kathy 38:41
A hundred percent. So, you know, one thing that I love about my field in hospice and palliative care is that we really take self care very, very seriously. And especially in medicine, you know, that was something that I had never really seen a lot, because it makes sense, we deal with very challenging emotional, distressing, uncomfortable situations, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, and all this stuff. So for us, self care is the vehicle by which we deliver better care to our patients. And I think that can be applied to our own lives. I think self care has become this thing where it's like, oh, you know, if you just get some massages or, you know, write and have a nice green smoothie and go to yoga class that, you know, it's going to solve everything. And not to say that there's not utility in those, we have to do some of those things. But I think self care is also things like setting boundaries. And also, you know, making time for the things that are important to us that may not be our business. It's so easy to just when we have free time, just be like, I'm gonna hustle, I'm gonna grind, and I'm going to work on the business. And then, you know, a year, a few months, whatever it is, you're just like I'm so burnt out, like I hate how I feel doing this, even though I want to be doing it. I just hate like the process of it. And you don't want to be operating and owning a business from that standpoint, and you don't want to live your life that way. And so I like to think about time, in the sense that like, if we, how you spend your time, is how you live your life, right? If we want our life to be fulfilling and meaningful, and fun, and adventurous, and amazing, then we have to spend our time doing things that are fun, amazing, meaningful, adventurous, and all of those things. And so it's, it's really, again, going back to aligning our life with our values, aligning our decisions with what's important to us, rather than, you know, being taken along for the ride, actually putting yourself in the driver's seat, and saying, like, these are the choices that I'm going to make. And because it's important to me, and this is how I want to spend my time, this is how I want to live my life.

Sari 41:04
I love that, it's so good. Kind of the analogy I've heard a lot recently of like, you know, it's like getting in your car, and then you just hit the gas, but you're not steering it, right? And you're just like, life is just like none of us would do that, right? That's gonna be terrible. So it's making decisions about what we want and, you know, I don't know, I'm curious. Like, I think sometimes when we talk about death and the work that you do, people get nervous, like I don't want to be thinking about death all the time. And it's so morbid, but how do you incorporate some of these, you know, what you see where you're not like, super morbid, but you're actually using it to create more decisions that are aligned with your purpose?

Kathy 41:53
That's a great question. Because I think we're such a death avoidance society in general. And we, we avoid things that we don't want to think about or uncomfortable that or not even death. And, you know, probably I imagine some of your listeners when they see this episode come out, they're just gonna be like, what does, you know, palliative care and, you know, thinking about the end of life have to do with a packaged food business, and I get it, but I think it's also a testament to you to be like, actually, you know, there's inherent value in these lessons, they are applicable, they are kind of some undeniable truths about living, whether it's personal, or business, or whatever it is. And so, you know, I think it's just normalizing that every second of every day, whether we want to believe it, whether we want to think about it or not, people die, and people are born, and people get sick, and people have accidents. And it's not to just let it weigh you down. Because if you want to, you can. You can just be like, oh my god, it's so awful. You know, there's so much death and it's so much suffering, and I can't deal with it. Or you can make the decision, using mindset, using your life coaching skills, and all that stuff, to say, I accept that that is a common human element, that we're all going to have to go through that one day. And I'm allowed to hold space for both of those, right? I'm allowed to recognize that that is true. And I'm also allowed to use it to inform how I live my life. It's not one or the other, it's being okay, with having both. And that's not easy for a lot of people because we're trained to be so black and white, that it's either going to be this or that. And so holding space, or both of those, I think is a really great way to be able to move forward knowing and keeping that in mind.

Sari 43:16
Yeah, the power of and. I have it here in my office, it's a hard lesson for me. I'm very black and white. So reminding yeah, having those constant reminders that you can be having. Yeah, just that and that both, both can be true. Yeah. And I think I've mentioned in some previous podcasts but I do something Dinesh actually taught me, a coach colleague of ours that basically, you know, multiplied my, like how long I think I'm going to live for and got the number of days. And I just remind myself of that every day, not in a morbid way. But I have a countdown and, you know, I mean, and that's best case scenario, but I think as humans, we want to like, there's that we want certainty, right? And we, we couldn't have uncertainty every day, we couldn't be like, oh my gosh, today could be the day and like, live in that anxiety every day, we need a certain amount of like, I'm gonna wake up the next day, I'm going to my coffee like, but at the same time like nothing is certain. And so I remind myself of just not in a super like anxiety provoking way, but just saying, like, life is precious, life is short, and I have fewer days left in front of me than I do behind me. It's wild.

Kathy 45:40
And it's so true. And you know, people are like, live your, you know, live every day as if it's your last and I get the sentiment but also on a practical manner. Like, if today literally was my last day, I would not go to work. I would not, you know, like do laundry, I would not do some of the things that we need to do. And so it's like you said, it's being intentional, and just being like, okay, I have that in mind and want to use it. Not necessarily to make myself feel bad, but to just like, do things that I'm not going to regret not doing.

Sari 46:18
I didn't realize I wanted to ask you this question. It's a little bit, not quite on entrepreneurship. But I do have a number of clients and people in Food Business Success, who either a parent has died or has gotten sick. You know, there's that real life tragedies that happen. And I'm just curious, what you from your point of view, what are some tools? Or how could people see, you know, when they're in it, when they're going through it, yeah, what do you, what do you recommend for people who are, you know, have lost some something or?

Kathy 46:57
So, like coping mechanisms for grief? And that's what, yeah, I mean, grief is this. Grief is so difficult because everyone experiences it and deals with it in a different way. The framework, what I like to say about grief is that, like, when you lose someone, like, and you're fresh in it, grief is this very, it's like this all encompassing thing, like you can't see anything beyond it, right? It's like your integral digital shattered, and this, there's just like, orb of presence of something around you. And you feel as though it's never going to get better. Like you're always going to be in it. And then, you know, that grief, and what you're feeling, I kind of think about it as like a circle or an orb, like the size of that never really goes away, like people don't get past it, you just kind of move forward with it. And the thing is that with time, even though the size of that grief is still present in your life, your life experiences and with time, all the other things in your life grow around it. So your life kind of expands around grief, rather than your grief get smaller. Because I think for a lot of people, it's like, oh, you know, like, if I if I don't feel bad, or if I don't think about this person, that means I've forgotten them or something like that. That's not the case, it's just that it is not occupying as big of a part of your life, as it was when it was fresh. And when it just happened. And so, you know, that's how I like to think about grief is that, like, life is going to expand around it. And there's so many resources that people can go to, you know, it's really easy to shut down and say like I don't want, I just wanted to deal with this myself. And that's okay. But, you know, also there's so many people who are also going through the same exact thing. Again, it is a universal human experience. No one is alone in dealing with grief and the effects of it. And so, you know, I would also say, find a community, talk to people. There's a, there's, I think, for young people, I think it's called the dinner club for people who are young like 20s and 30s, who have lost either a friend or a parent or something like that, because, you know, as we get towards midlife, it's more common for us to lose someone just because of age. But do it at a young age, I think is a different experience for a lot of people. And you know, you can probably relate. So I think that that's something thing to keep in mind that it's, you're not alone in dealing with it.

Sari 50:05
Thank you for that, I think what I'm seeing is like, there's like, a lot of guilt to of like, what I should be doing my business or I'm behind now or, you know, I'm not where I, you know, I set this goal, but now life happened, this tragedy happened and and then there's a yeah, a lot of self shaming and guilt around that. And so I would just offer that, you know, having compassion and as somebody who has gone through some of that those tragedies, and I think we all have to some extent, but you know, not making big decisions in the moment, having self compassion, and realizing that like, it will get easier, better. You know, I love that idea of your life expands, because that's definitely how I see my life like that grief will always be there. And my life expands around it. I know, that has certainly been my experience with it as well.

Kathy 51:02
Yeah, yeah. And once I came upon that framework, I was like, oh, yeah, that is spot on.

Sari 51:08
Yeah. It's very, very, yeah, very accurate. Well, it's been an amazing conversation, I've really enjoyed it. And I know, I think it's gonna be really helpful for people either trying to decide if they should follow that little voice that's nudging them, you know, how to deal with when you are, you know, facing loss of somebody or in grief, and being kind to yourself and all of these tools and lessons. Is there anything else that you want to be sure you mentioned, and then I'd love for you to share where people can find you as well?

Kathy 51:45
The final thing is like, if you are thinking about it, if you're on the fence, just go and do it. It just, it's so worth it. Because you will discover parts of yourself that you never thought you had. You will discover things about yourself that on the journey of being an entrepreneur that you wouldn't have expected. And it's so scary but it is so so worth it. You know, be grateful for the time that you have. Every day above ground to me is a good day, no matter what it brings. And so make the most of your time while you have it. I'm at Purpose Filter on Instagram. My podcast is the Purpose Filter.

Sari 52:38
So good. Yeah, your podcast was amazing. So thank you for putting that out in the world and sharing that.

Kathy 52:45
Thank you for having me. It's been such a blast. Thank you, Sari.

Sari 52:49
This is one of those podcasts, I would love to get your feedback on to hear if it made a shift in you and maybe eased some things a little bit, gave you a little bit more clarity, a little more. I don't know just awareness or tuning in. I know that these conversations really do that for me as well and Kathy's podcast is just phenomenal. So don't forget to get registered for the Hard Times Ahead call, it's totally free. And I just really want to be there for you and give you some tools and strategies, both in how to manage your business so you can keep it going long term and set yourself up for success even during hard times. And just caveat, when are there not hard times? But that's okay, we're going to talk about it. I know it feels extra extra extra late late. And I'm going to give you some mindset strategies as well. So be sure to tune in to that it's going to be a game changer, foodbizsuccess.com/hardtimes. Until next time, have an amazing week!

Sari 53:59
The smartest thing you can do as an entrepreneur is to invest in a who to help you with the how, to speed up your journey and help you skip the line. When you are ready for more support and accountability to finally get this thing done, you can work with me in two ways. Get me all to yourself with one-on-one business coaching or join Food Business Success which includes membership inside Fuel, our community of food business founders that includes monthly live group coaching calls and so much more. It's one of my favorite places to hang out and I would love to see you there. Go to foodbizsuccess.com to start your journey towards your own Food Business Success.