Full Transcript

 

Sari
Welcome to your Food Business Success. This podcast is for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged food industry ready to finally turn that delicious idea into reality. I'm your host Sari Kimbell, I have guided hundreds of food brand founders to success as an industry expert and business coach, and it's got to be fun. In this podcast, I share with you mindset tools to become a true entrepreneur and run your business like a boss, interviews with industry experts to help you understand the business you are actually in, and food founder journey so you can learn what worked and didn't work and not feel so alone in your own journey. Now, let's jump in! Oh, my goodness, I cannot believe you're finally doing this. If you have been in my world for any length of time, you have probably heard me mention our guest today, Christopher McLaughlin of Tenfold. And finally, I am welcoming you to the podcast. Hi, Christopher.

Christopher
Thank you so much.

Sari
Oh, my gosh. You and I have been working together for so long. And we have been talking about having on the podcast for a long time.

Christopher
Yeah, here we are. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, we've done a lot of bands together. It's fun.

Sari
Just to kind of take people back. I mean, you and I reconnected actually in 2018? Or 2019?

Christopher
That's about five years ago. Yeah.

Sari
Wow. Okay. So about five years ago, you reached out, you heard me in some workshops, and you're like, hey, I know her. And we're in the same space together.

Christopher
Yeah. How about that? Yeah, it's great. It's great to reconnect.

Sari
So you know, a lot of people know this already. You and I actually went to high school together a long time ago, and then lost touch. And then you are a graphic designer in this space. So I'd love for you to just tell people a little bit about your background. We were actually in newspaper together and you did all of the amazing editorial cartoons.

Christopher
Yeah, that was the start. Yeah. So I have been designing almost my entire life. And I love bringing things to life. And there's a thrill in that for me. So I've been a professional designer for about 25 years now. And in 2006, I started this design firms called Tenfold. And we do branding and packaging for early stage CPG brands. And so it's evolved over the years, we did beer for a long time. And now I just focus on food and beverage, and working with early stage startups. So lots of people who have dreams that want to build something, and I get to help them do that. And so that's kind of the thrill for me is working with those folks.

Sari
Oh, my gosh, and now, yeah, fast forward five years, we, you know, tons of products back here on my shelf, or have had your hand in them. And you and I have collaborated on a lot of projects together. We've definitely been who's for each other. I have some partners helping you finish projects so that they're FDA compliant, you working with a lot of my clients. I just love, we have such a great working relationship and you're willing to, let's face it, you're willing to put up with my shenanigans. It ultimately creates a great product and something that is FDA compliant, but does you know, meet regulations, and looks amazing, right? It's going to be compelling to get off the shelf. But it also does the heavy lifting, and does the sales work. Right? It can be beautiful but that doesn't mean it's going to get into people's carts.

Christopher
Right, and I think that's a great, I actually think is a great piece that you bring to it is having the customer's perspective of like, what is the customer going to think about this when they see it on the shelf, but also the store buyers. So I mean, there's a lot of requirements that people don't realize, that store buyers are looking for that they want to put certain kinds of products on their shelf. And so I love that we can partner together and kind of figure out those unique components for each product and to get them on the shelf. And it's a thrill like I think for both of us. I think we both get a thrill of seeing these young companies do something awesome and get it out there. It's so great.

Sari
Yeah, oh my gosh. And as a lead into our first conversation topic, but I think that that is, you know, the conversation we just had about all the pieces that need to go into bringing, you know, ultimately it is your product, putting it into a package. It's also not just your package, right? It's the full visual, whether it's on social media or your website and all of the places. But I just want to mention that. In my opinion, this is a big difference between working with people who understand branding and packaging, versus let me go hire somebody on Fiverr, or my nephew, or my uncle who's a graphic designer, nothing wrong with that. And sometimes we just got to start where we need to start. But there is a big difference between just a graphic designer versus kind of this larger brand strategy. And so we can start talking about branding, and what is a brand from there?

Christopher
Yeah, yeah, that's great. It's a great introduction. So the term brand gets thrown around a lot. And there's, you know, if you, for me, when I scroll through my LinkedIn connections, it's like brand consultant, brand analysis, brand strategist. And it's like, I know the terms well enough that I know, oh, these are actually totally different things that these people do. But they all have the term brand in it. And so the brand. It really is like the reputation that you have with your customers. Like that's the thing that influences them. And so, your logos, a part of that, your packaging is a part of that. But it's also how you handle customer service. And it's how you handle your website, and how you talk about your product. And basically any touchpoint of your product with your customers, that's your brand is doing that. Your brand is the thing that is conducting that conversation. So it's big. It's a big, big term. And so, you know, when you hire a designer, if you find someone on Fiverr, that just does logos or whatever, they're probably going to give you a logo, and it may get you through whatever season you're in. But the idea behind building a brand, as opposed to just doing a logo is that you're actually crafting this message, the story that your product is and then figuring out how to connect that with your customers. So it's a term that is big and often misconstrued. But it is important. And it's key.

Sari
It's such a good thing to talk about. Because I do think that there's misconception, people think, oh, it's just my logo, and to, you know, be very clear, it's like, the logo is just one piece of your brand. And ultimately, I think when people because I see this a lot with early stage folks, and again, I don't think there's anything wrong, like you're starting a cottage food business, you want to go test it out, you're in early stages, okay, go get something on Canva or work with your neighbor or find somebody on Fiverr like, we need that minimum viable product. And sometimes you may not even know enough to really be able to, like work with somebody like ourselves.

Christopher
Exactly. Yeah. And but doing that in our industry, we call it a design sprint, where it's like, okay, I've got a day to pull this packaging together or you know, do a quick logos just so they can get out there and test and see how people are responding to the product. And I think there's a place for that and you know, a good designers, their strategy involved with that too. But even, you know, just going onto Fiverr or going onto some of these websites where you can just pull it together quickly. Sometimes that's what you need to get started. And so it has a place.

Sari
It does. I like to say if you're, you know, if you're going to start, if you're going to go with co packer, if you're ever going to go back or usually there's 1000s of printing, you know, 1000s of products being made. Anytime you'd like, you know you've proven the concept and now you're like yes, I am. I've learned who my customer is more because a brand isn't just about talking to everybody. It gets very nuanced and it's about am I talking to my customer and am I attracting them? You know, it's like that magnet pull. We want to bring them in.

Christopher
And I think, you know, like going to farmers markets and seeing who's buying from your store or seeing what people are doing initially with your design sprint, with your quick tests, pretty quickly you get that conception of who your customer is and what your product is about and how it fits into their world.

Sari
Yeah, exactly. And you know, people know I'm a big fan of going and testing in the farmers market, get that minimum viable product out. Use that, you know, craft bag that you get online and all of that stuff. But ultimately, once you're kind of past that testing, that farmers market phase where you can, you are having the conversations with individuals, and you're getting that feedback, which it is like a paid focus group. Right? Which is awesome. But get that feedback, all that good stuff, then if you're going especially if you're going on to grocery store shelves, or you're going on to digital shelves, right? If you're on social media, if you're trying to sell your product there. If you're on Amazon, it is now a one to many, not a one on one relationship, like a farmers market. You need your brand to do so much more for you. So can you talk with us a little bit more about how brands can really support you when you start going to the one to many?

Christopher
Yeah. And you know, when when brands get to that point. A lot of people feel overwhelmed at that point. A lot of people have, when you start ask them questions about really dialing into the details of their product of who they are, and why this product exists in the world. And if you ask them questions about their customers, a lot of people get that deer in the headlights kind of look. And I've been doing this long enough and run into that enough that it's like figuring out what questions to ask. It has been key from my side and understanding that. And I hope this is encouraging that brand already exists in your brain like all these questions, you have the answers to them, you know more than you probably think you do. And I think having a designer or a brand strategist to ask the right questions, to help you get over that point of feeling like you don't have the answers can really be a key point, especially just before launching into the store or something like that where you know, so having those questions asked to you to get them out of your brain and putting them somewhere that you can actually use them and act on them is a key point to getting from having a product to getting into the stores.

Sari
I've seen you evolved so much over the years. And I mean, before we reconnected, I know you were doing some pretty large, big brands around microbreweries and stuff like that. But so I'm sure you've always kind of been doing this. But even you and I like we developed a questionnaire at the beginning when we would work together with clients and it was great. And now you have an awesome course that people can go through. And I have seen how much you have changed and evolved and you're just getting better and better at asking the right questions and asking them. People they don't know this. They don't know that language, the speak you know, we have our own puppets as you know, design and branding. We all have this like language that you may not be familiar with. It's like, I mean, this isn't in a bad way like you're dumbing it down to like the regular people to so that we can. I mean, the chorus is literally called what is it called?

Christopher
It's called get that brand out of your brain and into the world.

Sari
I was like, I'm pretty sure that's what it is like that you're literally helping the layperson who doesn't know what the heck, you know, what is my brand? Like you said, it's in there. We just need the right questions and not making things too complicated.

Christopher
Totally. And and you see that so often with especially when you're just starting out like there's so many options and lots of advice. There's lots of people out there giving advice and you know, I've been doing this long enough that I've seen people paralyzed by that, like paralyzed to the point that they can't act on even the knowledge that they have and just because I feel like, I've got to go get more information, or I mean, there's 10 other classes I need to take or whatever, and it's no, you need to just start doing stuff and start building and making mistakes. And that's okay. And part of, I guess the confidence that I've developed over the years comes from just making mistakes over and over. But I'm also seeing that these questions are universal, so anyone who's starting their brand, and maybe not sure where to start or not sure what the next step is, it's probably a lot easier than you think. So this course was developed to be that step, it's not an intimidating course, it's not, you know, it's not going to take three weeks to do like, you could literally sit down in an evening and go through the whole thing. And the purpose of the course is to get that brand out of your brain to show you that you know a lot more than you you think you do. And to put it and take that information and put it in a place that the people around you that are helping you to build this brand, they can actually do something with it. And use it and to be strategic about what it is that you're doing. And from a designer standpoint. Let me back up. So what you end up with is at the end of the course, you'll have a document that outlines who you are, who your customers are, and who your competition is. And the idea is to answer the question of like, how do I serve my customers in a way that my competitors can't. And the clearer that you can get on that point, the stronger you're going to be on the shelves. And this is pivotal to design strategically, it's critical to have that information because I'm going to design the packaging different depending on who your customer is. And depending on who the values that your product brings to the store, we're going to play those up or down depending on what makes sense for your brand. So that's kind of the difference between being strategic or just trying to slap something together and get on the shelf.

Sari
Yeah. I mean, I would say if you, because I hear this all the time, like, oh, I paid some money, you know, to Fiverr or whatever other design sources. And I'm not happy with it, it just doesn't feel like the right thing for their logo. It's because you haven't actually given them anything to work with. You haven't gotten the brand out of your brain and onto paper.

Christopher
Yeah. They're literally just throwing spaghetti against the wall. And sometimes spaghetti sticks.

Sari
Sometimes you hit oh, yeah, it's like, oh, amazing. I love it. But it's also like, are you the right person to say you love it, you know, if you're not your target customer, maybe talking to more people. Maybe we need to not ask everybody about their feedback. But in any case, I think even you know, even if you're like, I'm not ready to work with somebody like Christopher, like even just doing that course, which is an excellent course and you are so generous, you are giving everybody a 25% off discount, I'll put the link and all the information in our show notes. But even if you just did that, and then go work with a designer, you're going to be so much further along.

Christopher
Totally. And it's not just your designer, like if you're working with social media people, anyone that's interacting with your brand, they need to know this. They need to know who you are and how you communicate yourself.

Sari
Basically anywhere along the way, where you start saying why don't they get it? I don't understand why they can't just read my mind. Why are they giving me this crap? This isn't what I asked for. When you stop and take complete extreme ownership and say, I have not gotten my brand out of my brain and put it on paper. So this will help you. Yeah, you're so right. It goes way beyond design. But if at any point with anybody, you're saying any of those things, and I have seen it firsthand. I love that you now do this with your clients as well. They people you are designing for that you take you have them do this course. And we're working with what will give Karianna shout out gate foods we are in the middle of the design process. So we don't have the final product yet. We will. And I know she just raved about that course. And then I sat in on the call after you were reviewing everything. And I was like, this is amazing. It's so helpful.

Christopher
Yeah. And my goal with giving the course to my clients when we're starting the project is just to give you some tools bits, to give you some tools to start thinking about these things, and to start talking about who you are. And to do it in a way that is, it's maybe not what you're maybe not what you would know, if you have never been through this process before. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, it's really for people that are starting this product and wanting to get out there, but not exactly sure how to talk about themselves. So it gives you tools to get out there and communicate what it is that you're doing.

Sari
A hundred percent. And then I'm excited. We're meeting actually later today with a new client of ours who we're going to take her through this process and expand it out with Anna Bradshaw, our copywriter. And I mean, we're kind of just doing that placeholder logo at the beginning. But I love that we're going to define all of this. So we can do a multi stage process.

Christopher
Yep, it's going to be strategic, the whole thing.

Sari
The whole thing. So the more you can be strategic about it, you know, the more that you're packaging. Well, and I want to talk about packaging a little bit more, too, because the more your brand can do that heavy lifting for you, and do the work when you're not there.

Christopher
I mean, packaging is such, I mean, that's consumer package. Good. CPG, that's why our industry is called loaded, the packaging is 100% of your customers are going to come into contact with your packaging. A hundred percent. Like every single one of them. And so it has a lot of work to do. And it needs to, it needs to do all of the things that we've been talking about, like who are you? Who are your customers? And how do you service them different than your competitors? And the, you've got like three seconds, you got to communicate all that in like three seconds. So your packaging really is your silent salesman, it's going to be there for you, and it needs to speak for you.

Sari
Mm hmm.

Christopher
So we spend a lot of time in our projects, working through the packaging and getting that really dialed in. Because it's so key to everything you're going to do.

Sari
One of the things that I think is very unique to you. And I don't know if you did it before we started working together, but I know I definitely was like I really like this, I want to see this but you are very unique and that you give us you know, even at that first round where you're giving us three totally different ideas, totally different concepts, you are putting them on potential, like what the packaging could look like. And I have never worked with a designer who has done that. And I love it so much.

Christopher
Yeah, exactly, I find it so helpful for people to see the context of. It's not just a logo, it's a logo on the packaging. And so it gives a broader sense of like, what I'm envisioning with this particular logo, and what direction it's going to drive the packaging. I feel like if you if you just throw a bunch of logos, or when if you just evaluate your product in our industry, just based on the logo, you're going to miss that. You're going to miss all the nuance that comes from the packaging and the broader expression of the brand. That's so key. So yeah, even from a designer standpoint of like, the brand doesn't really make sense to me until I put it on the package. And so it really makes sense to get it on there and build it out enough that we can talk about it. And you can see what I'm envisioning with this and where it would go.

Sari
Yeah, it is something that's so cool. And, you know, I think back Karianne stuff is, you know, we had a couple of different packaging options and she could go the more traditional route of a pouch or bag or something like her competitors than we were looking at tin like coffee can kind of look and then paper tubes. And it was so interesting watching that evolve where seeing it on those packages was like, oh yeah, this is a no brainer, right? This type of packaging. In addition into my brand is really going to speak to my target customer.

Christopher
Yeah, and seeing those mock ups really helped, you know, steer that decision. And it's one of those things where it's like, you really can't make sense of it until you see it. And, she was hilarious because as soon as she saw it, the decision was made.

Sari
Even though we like kind of kept going down, like, well, let's compare prices, and then she was like, no, this is obvious. And it just gives you so much information. And I really believe that you can use the packaging as a way to differentiate yourself on the shelf, you know, and we don't always have that opportunity. But, you know, using paper tubes for, you know, a pancake or cake kind of mix along with all the other pancake mixes is going to really stand out. And look ultra premium.

Christopher
Yeah, I mean, and, you know, you look at, especially when your competition is all in bags, and that, and there's nothing wrong with plastic bags, but they're pretty conventional, and they're not going to, the format itself isn't going to do anything special for you. So for her, it was worth it to do the added investment and just take the plunge and do these really great packages.

Sari
Yeah, exactly. And seeing it on a package, you know, if it's a flat bag, paper or plastic or whatever, versus a curved surface, you know, you're going to want to lean towards something that's going to fit in that space better and take up the space well, versus, you know, on a flat bag, you have maybe more horizontal space than a curved surface. So there's so much that you get from seeing on these mock ups. And like I said, I've never worked with anybody in the industry, did you start doing that with me? Or was that? Did you do that before?

Christopher
Well, no, I've done that for quite a while. The thing I found early on is that if you just show logos, people really don't get a sense of context. And so early, I mean, 20 years ago, I was noticing that, like people had a really difficult time envisioning what this brand is going to look like when it's actually on packaging, or on a website or somewhere other than just a logo. And so it started off small, you know, it was just, you know, putting it on business cards or something like that. But I think with our industry, you know, it's so key to see it on the package itself that it my markup process quickly evolved to including that because it's key. And it also gets the conversation started on what needs to be on the package. And what messaging is important to the brand owner and so that we don't you know it so we don't get farther down into the design process. And it's like, oh, I wanted to mention that. I'm high protein, or whatever. Oh, I have to redesign this whole thing to accommodate that now.

Sari
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Christopher
But the process kind of helps to prevent that and prevent surprises later on.

Sari
Not that we still don't have them. I feel like there's always one little fun little thing that gets. Having a good design team that I think we can roll with it, you are really great about taking feedback. And as I think about like, if I could give people some helpful hints on, you know, working with designers as you're doing your branding. I mean, because you do the course and some of that work ahead of time, it really does force people to start thinking about it getting the ideas out of their head, which is going to make your designer so much more successful. They can't read your mind. Unless you read it down. I think you know, you give people kind of the beginning like three really wild like very two to three, whatever you decide, but some very different ideas. And I'm always reminding people like when we go and look at those like, because they have like these immediate visceral reactions, like, I love it or hate it or oh, that wasn't what I wanted, right? And I'm always working with my clients who are working with you to say, okay, we're going to look at this like each one and say, what do we like about it? What are some things we like? What are some things we don't you know, and really look at each element because you are trying to give us a big spectrum.

Christopher
Yeah, exactly. And we are, you know, we're taking this thing and we're kind of sculpting it into place and to get it to fit. And it's, I usually do three options when we're doing a first round. And but those three options with are within the parameters of the brand strategy. So we do the workshop, we get this, it's kind of a framework, it gives us the edge of the sandbox. And then what I'm trying to show is like, okay, we've got this sandbox, and here's what this side of the sandbox looks like, versus this side of the sandbox. And, inevitably, there's, every once in a while, there's like this one very clear option. And it's like, okay, we're done. And we move on. And that does happen occasionally. But it's rare. And most projects are more like sculpting. And so we're taking this first round, and there might be certain elements of one that we like, and two, and three, and we're, you know, maybe those concepts mash together into something that really feels good. And maybe they don't, but that's what that part of the project is about is exploring within the sandbox, what different elements feel good together and how we can best tell the story. And in that story is key to because like, we're building the story as we're designing, and we're uncovering and discovering all these things that are important to you that need to be on the package. And so it really is an evolving process where we're, we're sculpting this thing together.

Sari
Sometimes it is about showing people what it's not versus what it is, right? And we can easily quickly go oh, wait, that's not it. But we're a little bit closer.

Christopher
And, you know, I guess my hope is just that people don't flip out. And we show them. Yes, I know this isn't it. I just wanted to make sure.

Sari
It is. I mean, I've talked some people down, right, it happens.

Christopher
Yep, we're all human. And we have those visceral responses. And so learning how to talk with your designer is really key to and realizing that it's a process like we're taking it from here to there, over the course of multiple design rounds. And so don't flip out.

Sari
And I think finding like you, what I love about you to customers, you are about building relationships, you really do care about your founder, you know, the people you're working with, their products. You are selective, you don't just do any project, you know, you really do enjoy playing in the better for you space, and you really value good food, and you live on a farm outside in Idaho.

Christopher
Yeah, totally. And the reason is that that's the best people. Those are the funnest people to work with, because they're passionate about what they're doing, they have a vision, they have an idea. And it gives me a lot to work with, from a design standpoint, but also just makes the meetings more fun. And the whole interaction is great. And so, yeah, so you're right. And, and there's a lot to that customer, to that person that's building this product. That is exciting. And I love being a part of it.

Sari
And I also, you know, it is about building relationship and building trust. But like, if I can speak to founders, who are maybe considering working with a designer is like, even asking the designer like yourself, like how can I best communicate with you, if I'm, you know, like, give me language, you know, because sometimes people are just like, I just don't like it. And you're like, what do you not like and getting specific. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, if your house shopping, I guess would be a good kind of metaphors, you know, it's like working with a real estate agent. And you're kind of figuring out what you don't like as much as what you do like, and you're refining what's important. And the real estate agent is getting to know you and your preferences, but also showing you some wild options sometimes to get you out of your comfort zone and get you thinking about other things. And, you know, how do you show up then and have those conversations when you're, you know, maybe your visceral reaction at the beginning is like, I just don't like any of these, which is never true. There are some kind of hard conversations sometimes, not every time, but sometimes and it's like, I always tell people, you know, whenever we do a lot of projects together, I'd say, we're going to get there, I can guarantee you 100% you're going to love it at the end. And so just going in there with that faith of like, we're in a collaboration together and you know, we're going to work together, and I'm going to say what's hard, you know, and you're very good at not taking things personal. And so you got to be mindful of maybe the designer, if they don't take feedback well.

Christopher
Yeah. Well, yeah. And there's definitely an element of, you know, we designers, we have egos. And so it's, I think, for me, it's like I've been doing it long enough that I can set that aside. So finding a designer that is not about them, is really key. And finding a designer that you can communicate with is key. And, you know, and even just realizing that you're going to be put in a position where you have to communicate with your words and you can show Pinterest boards, you can have mood boards and all that stuff. Like there's a lot of tools that you can use to share your brand. But ultimately, it's going to come down to your words and the words that you use to describe things. And for some people, that's very challenging. But the hope is that you find a designer that can help you find those words and get to a point where you can communicate with words. And because once you have words involved, that translation is a lot easier. And it's a lot easier for a designer to translate words into what the packaging or the brand needs to be at that point.

Sari
Yeah, because this is your zone of genius. This is where you thrive. And you have been, you know, living this language and using these words in your head to then create imagery and pull it all together for, you know, 25 years, which, Christopher, how did that happen? How are we at a place like we're almost 50 now? And we're like, I've been in this industry for 25?

Christopher
I know. Yeah. I mean, I'm thankful I'm still learning. Like, I feel like it's still exciting. And I'm still learning things. And I love that.

Sari
So yeah, and you guys can hear by his radio voice, that you are a calm person, and you're easy to converse with. You don't take things personal, and that is really important. And you do set aside your ego. I mean, we've had some challenging ones where I'm like, oh, this was hard, you know, but you do a really good job of not making it about you, you're just about getting the right thing for the product and for the brand. And sometimes it can be a little bit of a fiery process, right? Ultimately, we will get there. Like, I always have faith in that view.

Christopher
You know, the real quick, the other challenge I think about is that, you know, one of the keys to design is to design from your customers perspective. And I think sometimes founders are very passionate about what they've built in. Most of the time, they are their customer. They built this product because they wanted to solve a problem in their own lives. And so it's made for other people that have that exact same problem. But not always, and so sometimes you're building something for other people, for people that are different from you. And I think one of the challenges too, is finding a designer that can communicate with you, but also understanding who your customers are, and having that perspective, as you're critiquing. And as you're looking at things, and really looking at it from that perspective.

Sari
And it's also maybe you are your customer, but like you're where you are now. And right sometimes we need to design for where you want to be. And so that so I working with somebody, like our team, and we you and I work together is like also making sure it's FDA compliant. Also making sure like we're communicating those key things that we want our customers to know, taking it from a farmers market to Amazon or to a store shelves, checking off all those boxes, so also trust that you may not go, you may not oftentimes, it's like what people think they're going to get at the beginning. Hopefully, we've taken them on a journey. And it's even better than what they thought it would be. But it's different, right? It's different than what they thought.

Christopher
And that's exciting. Like, that's, I don't know, for me, that's a thrill. And I love seeing people go through that journey.

Sari
So tell us where we can find you. If people want to go and seek you out, either for the workshop.

Christopher
So it's all on my website at tendfold.net. There's a little button at the top that says workshop. And that link will walk you through every detail about the workshop, tell you all about it. There's even a place where you, a part of the workshop is understanding what's called a brand archetype, which is kind of like a personality test. And so I have a personality test for your brand that you can take, and it's free, and you can just take it and get the results and it's pretty fun to see what your archetype is and how it compares to all the other archetypes. So you can go there and if the workshop is something that you decide you want to do, you can use the coupon code Fuel2024 and you'll get 25% off.

Sari
It's such a value already. So I really hope people will take you up on that as we wrap up. It's been so fun but anything you want to leave people with as they're kind of thinking about, okay, maybe 2024. This is the year I'm going to, you know, take my packaging and take my branding. Take it from just a logo into a brand. Anything you want to offer to wrap up?

Christopher
Don't overthink it. Don't paralyze yourself with a whole bunch of information, like just start taking steps. And the tools that you need, and the people that you need will be there when you need them. So don't overthink it, just get started.

Sari
It's like sometimes we want to iterate. It's like we're trying to problem solve everything in our mind. Like, no, you just got to take the step and the next step and the next step. And then you can start like now you're in, in the flow of things now. Now you're like, oh, I need support here with this. And yeah, come join Sari's group. And oh, let me go work over here. And if if you are in Fuel, Christopher did a great kind of intro to some of this really taken us through some of these pieces around getting your brand out of your head. That was in February of 2023. You did that. So I love that you finally did that course I had to give you a hard time of.

Christopher
Yeah, speaking of taking action.

Sari
I was like, Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done?

Christopher
Don't make it hard. Don't make it hard on yourself. Just get started.

Sari
Just get started. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being on today. It was a pleasure.

Christopher
All right, thank you so much.

Sari
All right, I hope you got some great takeaways around how to get that brand out of your head. And if you want help go get the course and use the code to get 25% off. And how you can best work with a designer to make sure you really get what you want, and also what your customers want, because they are the most important thing here. And of course that it's all wrapped up under FDA compliance because we have that little thing that we have to deal with unlike other products. So if you want support on any of this, reach out to myself, reach out to Christopher, we would love to help you. And until next time, have an amazing week! The smartest thing you can do as an entrepreneur is to invest in a who to help you with the how to speed up your journey and help you skip the line. When you are ready for more support and accountability to finally get this thing done. You can work with me in two ways. Get me all to yourself with one on one business coaching or join Food Business Success which includes membership inside Fuel, our community of food business founders that includes monthly live group coaching calls and so much more. It's one of my favorite places to hang out and I would love to see you there. Go to foodbizsuccess.com to start your journey towards your own Food Business Success.