Full Transcript

Sari
Welcome to your Food Business Success. This podcast is for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged food industry ready to finally turn that delicious idea into reality. I'm your host Sari Kimbell, I have guided hundreds of food brand founders to success as an industry expert and business coach, and it's got to be fun. In this podcast, I share with you mindset tools to become a true entrepreneur and run your business like a boss, interviews with industry experts to help you understand the business you are actually in, and food founder journey so you can learn what worked and didn't work, and not feel so alone in your own journey. Now, let's jump in!

Sari
All right, welcome back to the podcast. We're so glad you're joining us for round two of turning the tables, where I am getting interviewed by April King, our Fuel Community Manager. And we had questions submitted by our field community. And we were recording last week for episode 200. Yay. And so we were recording and it was like, obvious, we were both like, ah, that's going to take a little bit longer than we planned, which is so great. I'm so glad we had so many questions. So it actually worked out really perfectly, where we kind of touched on earlier stage questions last week. And so now we're talking about more advanced, later stage, as people get launched questions. So it is with these things, everything worked out amazing. So without further ado, I'm going to turn it over to April King who is our field committee manager. And she also is a co founder at Better Than Provisions. And just a quick reminder that the full video is also on YouTube, if you're listening on one of the audio platforms. So welcome, April. Thanks for hosting today.

April
Thanks for letting me host, I'm very excited to be here. And I do want to remind people that this is part two to a two part podcast episode. So if you haven't already listened to Episode 200, go back and check that one out, especially if you're an earlier stage food entrepreneur because we talked a lot about the beginning stages of business. So we answered the questions that were from some of our members that are newer to our Fuel community. And you know, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about when we say Fuel community, it is our Food Business Success membership program, where you can get monthly group support, both on coaching calls, as well our behind the scenes community where we pop in and answer questions so they get direct access to you, the founder of Food Business Success, and someone with a background in food business from the buyer side. And from me and Danny when he's around. We are food business founders. And so we have the different perspective of what it's like to actually own your own food business and what we do there.

Sari
We love that we have that now. It feels like when we added you and then Danny and it just is like, this makes sense. Like it really rounded things out really nicely.

April
Yes. And I recognize that the community really appreciates that too. You know, because they get a lot of really great technical information from you. And also, you know, your own personal sort of viewpoint and opinions on things. And then also Danny and I have some like practical in the boots on the ground experience of trying to run and operate a food business. So yeah, it's really great. It's a fun place to be. So we do have some questions from our later stage entrepreneurs, food business owners, and the first one I think I want to talk about is Maggie from Dos Margaritas Salsa, she's been with you for a while.

Sari
Yeah, OG, like three years.

April
Okay, so shortly after we started working with you then, cool, well shout out to Maggie. She's killing it lately. So she asked the question that was relating to, for those folks who are, and this might be considered an earlier stage question. But also I think it's important at any stage of your business to really, you know, address this concept of if you're thinking about starting in CPG, or maybe you're reassessing where you're at in CPG, what should we be thinking about in terms of selling our products direct to consumer? And we talked a little bit about that in the previous episode with farmers markets and things. But there's other ways right in e commerce store, a site of your own as a way to sell direct to consumer, versus like putting your stuff out on Amazon to start or looking at specialty stores, which are generally like smaller wholesalers. And then there's the grocery or big box stores. So there's any number of ways you could start or pivot. And I would be curious to know what your advice is when people ask you that question.

Sari
Yeah, well, I'm going to start really high level in that all of them are great. They all can work, right? There's no, I think people want like, just tell me the one way I can do it. And we talked last time about like, this is about you building a business that you like, and that works in your lifestyle and kind of fits your vision. So I think it is about first we got to go like business 101. Like, what is the vision? What's the goal? Where are we heading here? You know, do you want a lifestyle business that isn't going to ask a whole lot of you in time and gives you more freedom and flexibility? Or do you want to be like, I am a serious founder and I'm bringing on staff and and going national, right? Like what is your vision? Is it to be a million dollar brand? Is it to be some million, is it to be 10 million, 100 million? And those numbers might sound really big for some people. But all of these things that you list on are under here. And we could also add things like food service as well, it'd be another option is, you know, where are we going? What's the vision? And then what's our strategy behind it? And then all these things just become tactics that we need to line up and execute. But I think the problem what I see over and over again, is people want to do all things all at once. Like, I'm going to launch and I'm going to be on Amazon, I'm going to be in grocery, and I'm going to do farmers markets, and ecommerce, and food service. And we're going to do all the things. And so I always recommend, like, can you pick a lane, get really good at that, and then layer in the next thing, whatever makes sense, because this journey is long. This is not an overnight journey, as you know, very well. And I think that a lot of people start and they're like, I'm making money in the first six months, in a year, right. And this is a 3, 5, 10 plus year journey to "success", whatever that looks like for you. But you know, let's just say that's in place and we understand like strategy and tactics. Because I think a lot of times people were constantly like shiny object syndrome. Somebody told me I should be in big box stores, I should go into Costco. Somebody told me I should be on Amazon. And somebody said I should do this. And what about Faire? And what about foodservice? And what about this? And it's like, yeah, all good. But let's just pick something and then see it all the way through. Because a lot of times things get, like half executed, and then we're frustrated that it's not working, instead of like, let's see it all the way through instead of doing all the things all at once. But I'd say like to maybe answer Maggie's question more specifically, I would say, you know, it's going to depend a little bit on your product, but you want to think about, you know, maybe what's that first place you want to go? Do you want to be more of an ecommerce brand? And does that make sense for your business? Like, if you're a frozen product, it probably is not going to make a ton of sense for you to like, launch on Amazon first thing, right? That's a really big challenge. Yeah, chocolates. Another one. Seriously. So yeah, half the year you can be challenging to ship. And so thinking about through, you know, through your product, like what's that blend between what your what your business is, what you want it to become, who you are, what you value, and you know, what makes the most practical sense at the beginning, and then layering those things on because some of these things are going to have bigger investments. If you're going to go into Costco, that's a really big investment versus I could start my own direct to consumer. Or maybe I can get in through Faire or through my neighborhood independence. So there's typically kind of, I look like a ring, you know, circles. It's like, start with the, the place where you live and the people you know, and then you kind of grow out from there. Instead of just like, I'm going to be in Costco. No resources, no community, no person to talk to. It's a very expensive endeavor. So I kind of answered it a couple different ways, but generally I say focus on direct to consumer first, and then layer in one piece of wholesale, and then another. You guys kind of did too, you didn't try to do it all at once, you know?

April
Well, I think we did and we didn't. So we opened up, you know, we have a multi channel business, and we opened up a few channels to start a couple of them. And then it was like, oh, there's Faire. And there's this. And, you know, and now we want to be on Amazon. And now we're in this position where we're kind of taking a step back from a few of those channels so that we can focus on our direct to consumer, because that is where we have seen ourselves excel, you know, and I think it's important to acknowledge that you can start with the idea that you want to be in a large chain store, in a Costco and a Whole Foods or something like that. And there are businesses that do it. But you also in those instances need to be realistic with yourself and honest with yourself about how much money do you have? How long are you willing to wait to see returns on those efforts? And can you get the support? And do you have access to the support and resources you're going to need in order to learn how to make that happen? If you don't already know. Yeah, because there's people that come in with really great business experience, right? They've had other businesses, they've done something and they want to do it a different way this time. And so they could start out with that as their main objective. I know that there's folks that wouldn't want to do a farmers market. And so I think it's great, you know, you kind of address that to just kind of like knowing where you want to be, where you are, what's your vision? And then what do you need to know and have to get there?

Sari
Yeah, I think the biggest frustration comes as people like I just want to be on whole foods national, but it's very expensive. And you got to be very well resource. So the people we're talking to generally the people who are in our membership, the people who work with me, are usually never been entrepreneurs before, don't have a ton of business savvy, or have never at least been in the CPG Industry. I mean, there are brands that, you know, maybe are backed by celebrities, or they've exited one business. And then they know the ins and outs in the industry. And they know, like they have the connections and the money and the resources to throw behind it. But most of us don't have that.

April
And it does. You said it yourself. You said I go that's a long path. It's a long journey. We've been in business for six years. And you know, we're seeing growth year over year, but it's slow, and it's organic. And you know we're doing a lot to try to stay a cash business. And doing it that way is very different than, you know, finding investors and getting other types of backing or taking loans or things like that. And you know, we've been able to do very well for ourselves in that regards but it takes time. And yeah, so that's a really good place to wrap up that question and what better place to get support than with a community of people who are doing it. But I thought this question was really interesting from Lisa of Romola Granola, and she does a product similar to ours. It's a grain free granola, and she asks the question, is there ever an instance you guide a founder not to move forward? Either because it's a crowded space, or it's not enough margin? Have you had members or coaching clients that you've said, you know, this may not be the right thing for you? And I can only imagine how difficult that would be to have to a say, but also then how necessary in some instances if people really just don't know what they don't know.

Sari
Yeah, I love that Lisa asked this question. I gosh, I would say yes, I have had, especially in my early days when I was doing more consulting and I was actually like doing a lot of the work for people. I definitely had times when businesses decided not to move forward, you know, we built the whole thing. All built, product, website, all of it. And then it was like, I mean, not that I was counseling them to get out of it necessarily, but definitely have had people that are like, actually no, not for me. And I guess to answer her question more specifically, you know, there are times I have met with, actually, I do remember meeting with somebody that had a really interesting product. It was kind of like a corn nut. But it was from Peru, I think. And it was kind of like the shape of a hazelnut and it was kind of a street food there. But she sent me some samples, and I nearly broke a tooth. I literally had like a hammer, and I was trying to, I'm going to break my tooth. And so we talked and I said, you know, money and time can get you like, we can solve these problems if you're willing to spend the resources on it. But I try to lay things out very pragmatically and say, here's what it's going to take, right? And are you willing to make these investments? Like, education is expensive, right? When you have a product like that, but if you're launching in the US, which you wanted to, it's like, we don't know what this product is, we don't know how to eat it. Or, you know, like, there's issues here that we need to solve, and you have a willingness to invest the money. And so I just tried to be very realistic. I'm like, here's what's going to cost you in time and money and energy. And so there are times when people don't move forward based on that. And I much rather, you know, people invest in a strategy call with me, like, to me, I'm like, I would much rather spend that money, a couple 100 bucks on a strategy call and have me tell you exactly what to expect and what it's going to cost. And here's what it looks like. And here's your competition, or blah, blah, blah, right? And I just rattle stuff off. And then you're like, well, actually, no, not for me, than spend 3000, 300,000, 30,000, whatever that number is, and then realize it's not for you. So yeah, there are times when I never say it's a no, I just say like, here's the things we're going to have to overcome. And let's be realistic about that. But you know, not enough margin is a real issue. So I like people to do some homework. And you know, sometimes I'll work with people one on one where we'll get all these numbers, we'll do the research, what's it going to take for you to go into co packing so that we can understand is there actually margin here? Are you going to actually be able to make money, you know, and do you have the money to lose, if it's going to take five years, if it's going to take 10 years. I'm a big believer in entrepreneurship, just because it's a beautiful vehicle to learn about yourself and to grow and to connect with others. But this is a tough industry to make money in. I mean, the margins are small, in CPG, in general. And so I just I counsel people on kind of the reality, and then I let them, hopefully give them the information to make good choices.

April
I appreciate that you're so honest about it. And I remember early on, we worked with you early days and also we had been planning a business like a year and a half or something like that, when we started working with you. And there was a moment and I don't know if you'll remember this, but there was a moment where you're like macadamia nuts. And you know, and you did push us a little bit to think about what we were, you know what we were doing and was it and when we launched our product, there still was not another product in the market like ours. We were a little advanced the big box stores or the company's, food producers hadn't latched on to the Keto granolas and the low sugar or the no sugar granolas or the grain free like things were starting to become more grain free, but not in that space. And you had asked us questions like well what is it going to take to educate people on what makes your product different because ours is more expensive because it's all nuts. So I remember that you challenged us a little bit on it and we took that and thought about it and talked about it and we believe so much in what we were doing, and our brand story, and our messaging, and our product. You can't get anywhere if you don't have a good tasting product. But yes, I appreciate that you do that, that you are honest with people and that you ask them the tough questions and ask them to consider those things before making a decision to move forward and you know, spend the money.

Sari
And I want to add too, I remember, he won't mind me sharing this, but I had a client Brian with Barfly Salsa. He was an early client, pandemic client, who, you know, was like, had a tech job and was working from home now, and everybody loves his salsa, it's like the classic story, right? Make the most amazing salsa. And, you know, we started it and he went all in and he was getting traction, he was selling the salsa into breweries and stores. And he was having a lot of fun. And that's a big part of it for me is like, I want you to have fun in this, like, this is a long journey. And if you're just in it for the money, this is not, go do a lot of other things, and then come back and do this. Because you're just you want to have some more fun. I'm not saying like, it's all daisies and rainbows. Like, we're all just like, yay, all the time. But you know, your heart's got to be in it. And he was learning and growing and trying things and it was interesting. And then, you know, he had a new job opportunity and family stuff come up and his heart wasn't in it anymore in the same way. And so we talked about it, he's like, I think it's time for me to let it go for now. And I was like that there's nothing wrong with that, like you had an amazing run. And you should be so proud of yourself. And it's okay to redecide at any time, and take the lessons and take the fun and take, you know all of it with you as evidence that like you did hard stuff, and you figured it out and you try new things. And so I tend to be a more optimist about these things. I mean, I tried to give you the real numbers and what to expect, but I do know other consultants and people in the industry that are a little bit cranky, little curmudgeon about it, right? They've seen so many brands try and fail and I get it. But they can be a little harsh, where it's like they just present the hardness of it. I tend I'm like, here's the hardness but it's possible, right? Like, I do believe it's possible if you're willing to stay in the game and find the resources. But that's just my personal approach.

April
Yeah. Well, we've had that talk before, too, you know, do we do we have a future? You know, we've asked ourselves that question at various stages of this process, and what our numbers and what our customers are showing us is yes, and also, you know, it can be really challenging not to compare yourself to other brands to the unicorns.

Sari
You know what's so funny is the unicorns are asking themselves those exact same questions all the time, too. I actually was talking to the founder of 34 degrees the other day at an event. He literally said, this is so hard. I don't know. I wonder every day if I'm should still be in it. And he's like, like, 15 plus years of launching one of the like, most widely recognized specialty crackers. And like, natural chain, huge brand. And he's like, I still wonder if I might get out tomorrow. It never ends.

April
So let's see, we have a few more questions and want to make sure we get time to get to them all. And I thought this one was really great from Ryan with Pup and the Pepper and congratulations, Ryan, he just launched his product line on Amazon. So congratulations to Pup and the Pepper for taking their next big step. And he has applied for various awards. You know, there's a lot of and I think, especially in his category with the hot sauce, there's a lot of opportunity to win certain awards, you know, gold, silver, you know, metal awards for flavor or hotness, or, you know, there's that whole game, the hot sauce game is very unique and interesting. And there's a lot of a lot of people in that space. So to differentiate himself, I believe he was going after these awards, but found that they could be really expensive and a little bit frustrating, like the process was frustrating working with the people who are responsible for, you know, the awards process. You know, so he wants to know what you think about going after awards for your products? And do they give you the ROI or the value back by receiving an award for your product? Like how much does that get you in return? And is it enough to make it worth the time? And the and oftentimes the investment that you have to put up in order to go after that award?

Sari
Yeah, it's a great question. I do think awards can be super valuable. And I do recommend when you're early stage, like going after them and then dealing with the headache of the application process and the things that you have to do. But you do want to be strategic. And once you start getting an award or two, I don't think you need to chase after them every year. And I don't think you need to chase after all of them. Listen, if you can just put an award on your label, like, you know, we won the, you know, this hot sauce award or Good Food awards is a really great consumer facing award that has a lot of different categories that might be good to go after. You're just looking for some social proof. And some people have an award that they've won 20 years ago. And it's still like, they're not going for the newest one. They're just like award winning, it's attached to you now. You are now an award winning whatever, award winning hotspots. So you know, at Master Your Business, we talked about that kind of high impact or effort versus impact filter and what to be doing. And I do think that this can be a place where you have to be selective and be like some of these are high impact and maybe not or sorry, high effort, but maybe not the highest of impact once you already have a couple. So I would be definitely selective like where Ryan's out right now. And really you know, have a budget and be like, we're only going after maybe the next like the top tier ones that we feel like consumers will really know. And the other thing to remember is that there's awards that are more consumer facing that a lot of folks go after like Good Food Awards, or, you know, best salsa I know like Maggie's won Austin's best salsa award or something like that right that consumers are going to recognize. And then there's also awards that are more industry focus, like specialty food awards, has their Sophie Award or the Nexty Award from Expo West. So those can help you more on the wholesale side. But it comes back to what we talked about the very beginning is like, what's my goal? What's the strategy? And is this a tactic that's going to get me closer to my goal? Or am I just like, it feels good to get an award, or I've always done it so I should just keep doing it. You get to redecide every time. And like I said, once the awards on there, you're an award winning.

April
Well, I wonder too, if you go after like multiple awards, and you have multiple awards, like where do you put that? You know what I mean? Like a gender label? So I mean, you could have an award page for your website, but then the question might be, what is that doing for you? Is that doing something for you? With the question, the follow up question I would have is, do you think that the same is true or similar for certifications, and thinking about things like gluten free certifications, or you know, like I could go for a Keto food certification. And we have not pursued those, but have definitely considered it, they can also be expensive. And then there's a process you have to go through to in order to receive the certification. And if you spend your money and you don't get the certification, then you're back to square one. So do you think it's a similar type of consideration?

Sari
Yeah, I mean, you know, awards are a little more accessible when you're just starting out as far as financial investment. And yeah, I do think I really would probably only put one, maybe two awards on my label tops. You could put it on have a section on your website's like award winning and throw all the icons and logos in there if you wanted to, but it's gonna be way too crowded on your label. Even if you had a lot more real estate than a hot sauce, like people it's going to still be too crowded right and not so it starts to look just junky and people actually might gloss over it more than if it was just one or two. You know that we're just like making a bold statement. I think the opposite is true a little bit with the certifications and that you know, early stage you know, like on yours we put gluten free because it is but we like made our own little bug with their little icon that says gluten free. We're not using this certified version that you do have to pay for. And there are FDA rules on how you can use those things. So you do want to be mindful of that what you can and can't say. We learned some some good lessons ourselves that many years ago. But I do think as you grow and scale that you may want to pick one certification to go after, right, that is like that formal certification. So whether that's non GMO is a really good one, I think to put on there people, you know, and studies, they've shown that people do really recognize that butterfly, and they've done a good job with their branding. So it's funny, because to be organic, you have to be non GMO, right? So people get, you know, they might spend the money to get USDA organic, but in consumers minds, they don't necessarily know that. And so a lot of times people get both because consumers are like, oh, it's organic, but is it non GMO? Which is, you know, it's like, yes, okay. But consumers don't know this. So if I were to get one, I think that's the one I would get is the certified as the non GMO. And then something like the gluten free one, I think could be really, you know, depending on your customer, right, if you're really going after a gluten free customer, or you know, some kind of an allergen thing, then getting certified in that could be really good. We're also seeing Women's Business Certification getting that has been, can be very helpful for women owned businesses as well, that there's, at least in this day and age that we're recording this, that there are buyers and companies and stores and things looking for that specific certification, so you know, it's very expensive to go after all of them. And sometimes you're just not going to be able to do it because your facility, if you're working out of a Commissary Kitchen, there's just no way that you're going be like get that certified. So it's a baby, it's a layering on process. It's not a, let's get it all done at once. But again, I think if you have too many of those bugs, those little circles and icons and logos, again, people just gloss over it when there's too much. I think it's better to have like three at most with some whitespace. And so people can actually really recognize them.

April
And it goes back to what you were talking about before about really knowing who you're selling to. Who's your customer? What do they care about? What's going to make the biggest impact on them to ultimately convert into sales? And I remember when we first started and I don't know if you remember our first banner. But we had more than a dozen little things on there, it was really fun, because they were kind of like pouring off the corner, and it was very stylistic. I will definitely have to send you the picture of our old booth because I had to look one up the other day, because I wanted to see like, in comparison, actually I wanted to show somebody in the Fuel community what our banner used to look like, versus what our banner looks like now. And I got a look at it and it was just like, wow, what in the heck are we thinking but we thought, you know, you don't know what you don't know, and also you have to start somewhere. So we started and it was better for us to have a banner than not have a banner. And we were very proud of it at the time. So I won't take anything away from where we were and how we started. But then also like, if you're in a community like this, where you can actually get feedback, that's a great thing to do before you start. And also to do a little bit more of that customer research.

Sari
I think that was one of the best things that people can use Fuel for. Just as a side note, it's like the I mean, if people were paying my hourly rate for me to give feedback on their label, you know, the cost per hour to do that versus like, because you're a member in there, I'll give you my feedback and tell you what's wrong, and FDA and all of that. But that's probably what you and I spend the most amount of time giving feedback on is like people's banners and their labels and their websites and things like that stuff.

April
Yeah. Because it's can be very tempting to want to put it all on there. It is because you're so proud of it. And you want people to know, you know, what you stand for and what your values are, and what is meaningful to you. And also, it's at the end of the day, you're not going to reach everyone, not everyone's going to be your customer. And that's like so okay for that to be true. So next question. So Jan of Oma and Poppies is working with some wholesale buyers, and you have a background as a wholesale buyer. And so he wants to know how you get buyers to respond when you like, and this has happened to us too where I've gone to the store that we sell out of and I won't mention any names, but we go there and there's like one bag of granola, one pouch of granola of our product left on the shelf and great they sold through it. That's amazing. And also the buyers still hasn't reordered and it's a delicate balance because buyers are busy. So how do you answer that as a person who previously was a buyer? How does Jan get them to respond?

Sari
It's so tough, man. As buyers, we're no fun. It's the hardest job and thankless job. But so always when you're setting up especially depends on the store, but a lot of stores you can maybe set up some agreements ahead of time to like, hey, can I restock and then send you an invoice? You know, see if maybe you can get that stuff taken care ahead of time or like is it okay, you know, I noticed you're down to you know, what's the par is what we would call it right? If we're down to two bags, can that trigger an automatic restock for me and I'll come in and restock it because at the beginning you want to be a really great partner, especially to your smaller retailers. You know, obviously if you're at a big store, you may not be able to do this, although I know some depending on the store, depending on the location, you still might be able to. That said so, that's not an option. And you've emailed and said hey, I noticed you're low and no response. I mean there's a fine line where you want to keep at it because it doesn't look good for them to be out of stock, a buyer's whole job is to get product moving, and they get it on the shelf so that it gets off the shelf so that it makes money for the store. That is their job. So unfortunately, that buyers not doing such a great job, what they're supposed to be doing. Who knows what's going on in their life! And when you are starting now, like you're just small potatoes, they got bigger stuff to deal with, and you and your, you know, bag of granola or sauce, or whatever that is. And I know it feels like that sucks to hear because you're like, but it's so important to me and to my customers. And that's all true, but they're dealing with bigger problems than you. And so, you know, I would keep gently nudging them when possible. I mean, what I told Jan on a call was, can you either pose as a customer or ask some of your customers to actually call the store, to email the store. When you're hearing it from your customers that they're like, hey, I want to buy this and it's out of stock and I'm frustrated, they're probably going to be more likely to respond. So that's kind of one way you could kind of sneak around it or try to get some movement there. And then sometimes you just have to let it go and use my favorite phrase, my stoic phrase of just like, okay, what's in my circle of influence, and my circle of control, and I've done everything I can possibly do, this person will not let me restock the shelves. They're not responding. Customers have emailed and called and nothing's happening, and you just have to let it go and go work on an account that is ordering and focus your attention there. And then, you know, it'll resolve itself at some point. But it's not the fun answer.

April
And we've done all of the above, like we've done where we've had our customers go in, you know, or I've told the buyer, like, hey, I'm getting a feedback from my customers saying, you know, we buy you at this particular store, and the last three times we've been in there, they've been out. So I'll include that in my message to the buyer, I'll say, okay, we're getting customer feedback. So like, it's not coming from me, like, hey, I really want to sell you on something, I want you to know that our customers are coming to us at our farmers market, they prefer to buy it from you, we want to support you as another local business, and we want to send our customers to you, but we can't if you don't have our product. And then also, I think what also is true is that sometimes you said that these things resolve themselves. And in the resolution, it can be a giant weight off of your shoulders, if it just doesn't work out. Like you could look at it one of two ways. You could look at it like, oh, that really sucks. I really liked like, I liked having that account, my customers like shopping at that account. And we had this happen with a particular account. But we had issues with them paying us, they were taking two to three months to pay us. And then we had to go there to pick up the check. And it was a thing, but we were trying to do it for our customers because our customers like buying there. And at the end of the day, the store changed its dynamic and focus, and in model, and then they didn't buy our products anymore. Yes. And these just a little side note on that. What's interesting since then is another buyer or another store in their same complex took the responsibility of managing their market because they saw what was happening and it was impacting. It was not just impacting us as a local vendor, it was impacting their whole, like strip mall area. And so they took the lead on running the market or portion of this particular business, and have since started buying from us again. And so now we're able to tell our customers we're back but one of my questions for her when she came to me is like, will I be dealing directly with you? Because, you know, and she reassured me that I would and because, you know, Earl and I were I think in two very different places. He was like nope, I don't want to go back there. That was so much of a hassle and then I was like yes, and our customers would be really excited to see us back there. So let me see if I can get more information and I think that you also mentioned that too, just the whole idea of developing the relationship with the buyer in a way that's very straightforward. You know, we have a practice of following up. I know my follow up lead times per customer, because I know the velocity, I know how fast things are moving there. So I have, I keep that in my CRM system where I'm reminded, and I set myself a reminder to follow up based on their history. And there have been times where I will follow up, there'll be maybe a three or four week follow up, I'll follow up. And they'll be like, no, we're good. And then two days later, I'll get an email from them. Because I know how fast it's moving. I only have to follow my product. They have to follow hundreds of followers. So I will follow up with them. And then sometimes I'll get a message a couple days later. And they'll be like, oh, my gosh, it just cleared out. And I need an order right away. But you know, I'm going to let you have this one. So yeah, great question, Jan. And I think then, like this question, and we're kind of getting to where we're probably going to start wrapping things up here. But the idea of growing your business and scaling your business as a later stage, you know, the business is evolving. It's taking on a new shape on you have mastered perhaps what that one place where you started, and you're moving forward. And there's, you know, there's growing pains in that. And Jessica of Fireworks Chef's Butters. You know, she talks about, you know, wearing so many hats. We're doing all the jobs when you're a small business, that's just part of the process and part of the game. And she is feeling it, and she wants her business to grow. But she's seeing it becoming something maybe more than she could manage alone. So she wants to know how you know when you're ready to find a real partner, whether that is an employee or a business partner, perhaps an investor or somebody, an advisor. Potentially, I know, there are CPG companies that have like little boards of directors so that they can get expertise from various people to help them run everything. And then her follow up question to that is, you know, when do you start looking around, when do you know it's time for a partner? But then how do you know who you can trust? And where do you look for a partner that is going to be somebody that you know, isn't going to leave you hanging?

Sari
Funny. It's like a lot of people have partners are like, oh, man, the solo on the solo. People haven't so easy. They just have just themselves to do it. And then all the other people solo running their business are like, oh, man, I just want to partner up somebody to help me with this. And both can be true. And partners can be awesome. And it can also be challenging, because both people want to have a say and do all the things. And so I mean, it really comes down to, we do this in Master Your Business, which is my next level program. And we'll be opening it up this fall. And so if you're in this place where you're like, how do I scale? I have to wear all these hats. I mean, literally, that's how I describe it as like the three hats of all the things you have to do in your business. And it's about you really stepping into becoming the CEO of your business and taking ownership and getting things out of your brain and onto paper and starting to bring in people, the Who's, that can help you in your business. And it's scary, it can be really scary. I generally recommend if you're bootstrapping you don't have a lot of a lot of resources, you know, especially financial resources to bring on a high level partner. We did that whole our org chart and thinking about what's a function of the business that if I just got this one thing off my plate like if I just got somebody packing the orders and taking them to the post office or maybe the UPS picks up instead of me having to go there or you're delivering to the stores themselves or you know, you guys are working with a who to help you with production to automate or like not automate it but to be able to turn it over to somebody else because mind blowing, you have made every batch of granola ever since the beginning of your career.

April
Last week when I was out of town Earl and Jana worked together to make the granola, and Earl made his first ever batch of granola the new way that we've been doing it. I mean, we've been doing this way in the ovens for several years. But he has not made it in that time. So he did it.

Sari
That's such a milestone!

April
Because I have never been away and having granola being made while I was gone.

Sari
Beautiful thing.

April
I celebrated that. Yes. And oh, and good for Earl too, because, you know, he got to see what that part of the business is like, and it's scary.

Sari
You did find out who to help you document all of that. And so I think that, you know, I really look at it, whether you're in a partnership or solo either way, you still want to be looking at where can I free up and have the lowest tier of activity, if you want to look at it, like pay per hour or something like that. Like, for instance, you guys might have noticed, if you're watching on YouTube, it looks so much better than when I did the editing, because I outsourced it to an actual video person who knows what the heck she's doing. And she does it way faster than me. And by the hour, it's way cheaper for me to pay her to do it. And it frees up like the first time I did it. I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't have to edit the podcast that normally takes an hour, let alone video editing. And all this time for almost four years, I've been like, no, it's fine, I can just do it myself, fine. It's not a problem. So anyway, there's a little bit of a tangent, but you want to be looking for how can you free up little pockets of time that you can train somebody with, you know, with a checklist with your SOPs, and they can do it just how you want it to be done. And then it starts to free up time. So then you can start leveraging your time and spending it in more valuable places like growing new customers or creating more efficiencies and spending on marketing and sales and those kinds of things. But you may run into a place where you are going to need to bring in some higher level talent. Maybe like somebody around sales or marketing or maybe even in finance. I think that the episode with Anna's and I can't remember the exact number, but it's in the 190s with Hooch Booch and Better Buzz Brands, she had a great model where she brought in fractional support. So she knew she needed some financial help. So she brought in a fractional financial person. So it's somebody that this is not like low skill level, but there's somebody at a high skill level around financials and financial projections and things like that, who could own that, but she wasn't paying them a full time salary and the benefits and all of that. It's a business model where they are giving you a small amount of time. So you know, fractional, so you get a fraction of them as a CFO or CMO or things like that. So I would probably recommend that model. Rather than going and trying to find a true like equal partner that you're going to then share the business with, I'm sure that there's examples of where it could work. Really probably, you know, filling your bench if you think about your org chart is like you know, your players bench and the dugout is like you do have key roles that you need to fill. And if those aren't your natural talent or things that you want to invest in knowing how to do, I mean, there is a level that you do need to understand your finances and your marketing and things like that, but then turn it over to somebody and just make sure that you understand I got to get a return on investment on this. I'm not just hiring to hire like it frees up time so that I can then go do more in the business because ultimately the business has to pay for these positions. And then maybe where you look at like a partner is more than an "investment partner" and ideally more of a silent partner who's like, sees what you're doing and that you're running this business like a CEO, not running around, you know, as a maker that's just like, trying to do it all. Like they see that you're getting your stuff together and you're creating processes and systems and you know, nobody wants to invest or buy a business where the person running the business has everything in their head and it's all dependent on them. Nobody, I would never invest in business, would you?

April
No, we learned that when we went through the investment ready accelerator program. We actually were exploring the idea of taking on a partner and an a co founder or potentially, and someone who had worked in this same space that we're in before and exited. And that was one of the sticking points is that we, there were a lot of sticking points. But the one that really stood out to me was the idea that we didn't have everything documented. And so now, those are the things that we're working on. We're getting the process for us, where we've we saw our biggest opportunity was to outsource or offload the production aspect of our business so that I could be freed up to work on sales and marketing, which is actually my happy place. And yeah, I'm more creative. So I enjoy that part of the business more not that I don't enjoy making the granola, I put love into every batch that I make. And also, over 30,000 pounds later, my hands are tired. My arm, my right arm is way bigger than my left arm. You know, so there's just like, there's that aspect of it too, right? As you can see that takes us all the way back to the beginning where we started talking about having fun, right? So what is it that you can let go of that maybe isn't so fun for you? And you can feel better and more empowered around your business, while somebody helps you do this other thing that maybe you're not as skilled at or you're just tired of doing?

Sari
And it's tough. I mean, this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's tough when people are like, all I want to do is make new products, like come up with new flavors and do R&D and things. And I think that's the hardest if I'm ever like, oh, you know, that's my biggest red flag. For somebody who's starting a business is like, I want you to fall in love with, sure, have fun in the kitchen and all the experimentation. But I also want you to fall in love with running a business, learning how to do this. Running a business has so many opportunities for experimentation and trying and connection and, you know, like, could you look at your business at least temporarily, as like how you would go about creating a new product, right? And really, like learn how to do it. And Master Your Business is such a great program just to do that, and really understand like, how do I read my financials? How do I create an org chart, getting all those processes out of my head, all of those things, so that you can build the business up. And then that's the like cherry on top when you build a business that does not need you in it. And then you can go play all day in the kitchen and create all the flavors and all the things that you want that is earned. And that does not come fast at all.

April
I mean, we still have the same three flavors we started with six years. And I think that was a piece of advice that I got at one point. And I'd be curious to see if you kind of agree with it, like building your foundation on a few key items that are really, they're really able to hold you up to like from a financial perspective to you that you don't need that the impetus for creating a new product is not because you need to diversify and so you can bring in more money. I mean, I think it's great to have selection and whatnot that like don't have your finances to depend on that. Like build, take your best sellers or your key products and really build a strong foundation underneath you. And then you have more flexibility and space to make new things and take that risk. Yeah, because I have a couple of flavors, I'd love to try. I did surveys and got people's feedback. And also I think about what happens if I release this flavor, and nobody likes it. Like I have to be able to take that risk and and be confident about it?

Sari
Yeah. And that's a strategy decision and you know, innovate or die is definitely something you hear in like the grocery world. But I agree you have to build a foundation first, like I love Justin's Nut Butter just because he's local to me and he started out a farmers market and 10 year overnight success, right? So overnight success, you're like yeah, I worked on your anyway, you know, he started with just a core couple of products and he figured that out and built it up and yeah, now he's got a ton of other products. So I would say like if you're in the grocery industry probably by your, maybe your three fours, when you're looking at let's bring in another flavor, let's wrote, you know, bring in another type of product. Capello's is another one that I think is a really good example. They are also local here, and I know the founders, but you know, they just started with the pasta, and then they went to pizza. And then they went to cookie dough, and now they've added biscuits, but like they're in like year 12, or something. So it's, you don't just, it's a long phase, you know, there's a long road to do that. And it is based on strategy, and not just like, I'm just in it to just create a whole bunch of different products. It's expensive every time you want to launch a product. Like if you're going to launch a new flavor, you got to do all the R&D, got to get all the packaging, the redesigned, buy the new bag, like it's expensive to launch a new flavor.

April
And it's there's no guarantees that it's going to take off.

Sari
Yeah, tangent there, Jessica. But I hope that helps.

April
We totally did. And I think like, just to speak to her question about, like, somebody you can really trust. I think that that's very personal.

Sari
I would never jump anything overnight. It would be like come work in the business for a little bit on a trial basis. Let's see how you are, you know, let's see what our relationship is like, I would never, like it's like going into a marriage.

April
Yeah. And what's funny is, I'm married to my business partner. So I had a partner and going back to the original, like we were talking about this question is like, I started with a partner, and you had alluded to like, is it better to be alone or solo or have a partner and I can tell you this, there's been days where I'm sure both of us have felt like, oh, this would be so much easier if I didn't have to talk to him or her. But then also, because we're in this together, we do find a way to make decisions that are, you know, that take his expertise and skills and might end to but yeah. So I think we're getting close. Really great. I said that before the last question. And I think I just want to kind of talk about Melissa's question. She's a little naughty. She's not a little naughty. But her business is a little naughty. And, yeah, it's really fun. And the question she had is, can you highlight a story where a perceived fail ended up turning into a win for you? And the reason I want to bring this up and with this question is because inside of our community, we focus a lot on celebrating the wins, and the small wins, and the big wins and celebrating it all, you know, because as you're going through building a business, there's going to be times where you're going to feel like you're not making any progress and moving ahead. And so you have made that a really important part of how we interact with one another, right? We lift each other up, we support each other, we get to share our wins and our accomplishments. And I think also, like when we share our wins, then that also helps people, it sparks questions for people. And then there's more communication about oh, I have this question about that thing that you just did that you're celebrating, right? But yeah, that's a huge part of our community in Fuel. It's woven in throughout everything you do. And I thought this was an interesting question, just because it's like, is there a perceived fail a time where he felt or maybe one of your clients felt like they tried something, it didn't work, but then in the end, it really ended up working out better.

Sari
You know, those questions are always the hardest, like, I know, I have a million of them, but then I'm like, I freeze I'm like, I don't know. You know, I hope you don't mind. I did not run this by you. But what actually came to mind when you were just asking me now is when we did a packaging, redesign, and we put some some claims on there. And I made some big mistakes on there and didn't catch some things and didn't know some things and then realized after talking to my trusted attorney, and that was a fail for me, like that was a personal fail. And I just remember feeling awful, right? And like I had failed you. You know, I was a failure. It was the hardest conversation to have that with you and are all and admit to like I effed it up. Like I totally messed this up. And ultimately, I mean, we had you know, you were were upset at the beginning, of course. And I also made it right as best I could. We got it reviewed, you know, I paid for the review, I like we figured it out, we just sold through the bags, it was fine, we made the changes. And ultimately I would call that a win. Because I mean, I had never had to do that with a client before. And it was hard. And we got through it. And we became even closer after that. And there was more trust built, I learned a lot about, you know, FDA compliance in that area. And remembering that even though I knew a lot, I don't know everything. And so I'm much more willing to consult with Lauren, if I ever have a question. And I'm more willing to invest in her time if I need to, right? To make sure that never happens again. It made me a better consultant, a better coach. Like we got through it, you know, and so I don't know, I hope you don't mind me sharing that we know, he talked about that publicly.

April
I don't mind you sharing that at all. And that is an excellent example of, you know, a tie, because I remember, you felt so awful. Like, oh, my gosh, because I was already so worked up over the packaging, like, you know, in general, because there was an issue with our first run with the company that we went to produce with. And so there were like these little things happening. But then at the end of the day, you learn so much about the FDA piece of it, and we made it right. And I learned so much about being resilient in the process of things not going the way that I imagined they would or turning out, you know, or mistakes happening. And then how do I deal with that? You know, internally, like, do I let it get me so worked up that it, you know, it takes a waste of my energy? Or do I just flow with the ups and downs of the of the business? You know, because really, honestly, there's always going to be something and there still has always been something. But I'm such a different person and from that experience, having gone through that with you, and and now, you know, our packages. Now I know, all the questions to ask, all the things to include all the things to look for on a proof, you know. And also, it was also really cool to get that perspective from Lauren as well. And even with all of her feedback, because she didn't just give feedback on a couple of things. Like she reviewed the whole entire package after that. And there were things that neither of us really knew and things that I ended up changing. And stylistically, it even impacted how we changed a few of the style and layout. And it turned out better after than it was before.

Sari
Yeah, I was so caught up in my own drama. So I think that's a great story that involves both of us. But you know, the reality is that we were talking before we start recording, I mean, you this whole time, all you're going to be doing is failing over and over and over again. And for every 10 fails, you get a win. And then some of those fails, turn in the wins, and you learn from them, and you grow from them, and you pivot and if you hadn't taken those first three fails, you never would have gotten to this thing, and never met this person. But you got to get in the game, you got to like get into the water and start swimming and start messing it up. And hopefully, we've created a container where you can fail. And I at least hope that I can catch you so that you don't do the really big belly flop fails. But you are going to fail, you're going to go talk to somebody, a buyer, and they're going to tell you no, and somebody's going to say they don't like something and, you know, on and on and on. Like, this is about overcoming, you know, failure. It's not failure, if it becomes a learning. And many of these failures, you'll look back. Now we can look back years later and say that was a win in so many ways. We both won from that. And so and I'm such a believer in celebrating your wins along the way. And so we do it every week. And the people who consistently post are the ones who are consistently taking action and getting results. And it's brain science. It's human nature that when we focus on our wins and our progress, we will continue to take action. When we focus on where we fall short and how things aren't working, we stop. When we stop, we lose momentum. And then we we just quit altogether. So I'm in the game of success, and anything can be a win. Sometimes it's just, I got out of bed, I put clothes on today.

April
Yeah. And that's it. That's, I think that's a really good place to end on. I will ask you one last question. Do you have one last thing that you would like, as a takeaway from this, like your experience? You know, the years you've been in business, and then and 200 episodes? You know, is there something that you'd like to leave everyone with?

Sari
I know, it's a big question. Well, yeah, I think I said it because like, just get in the game, just start, just take action, do the crappy banner that you're going to look back on and laugh, but you think it's amazing.

April
We still have the banner, it's in the garage, we kept it so that we could hang it up in our kitchen when we have our own kitchen.

Sari
I love it. Yeah, just get going. And know that I like to say that entrepreneurship babies and relationships will bring up all of your crap. So if you are ready to like, just deal with, you know, grow as a human and become a better human, go start a business, all of your stuff will come up. And hopefully you will find a community and and people and advisors and mentors that will help you work through that. Because I can promise you, it is never about the money. It is never about the money why people quit. Never. It is always a mindset thing. That's why I became a life coach. That's why I focus on it. I can tell you strategy after strategy after strategy. But if you can't get in your head, get out the garbage and get over procrastination, and all the fear of rejection and all the things then you're dead in the water. So I love supporting entrepreneurs, and helping them and I don't look at success as whether you know, you get into a grocery store shelf, or you exit or any of that. I just look at, are you winning every day? Are you making progress? That means you're a success to me. And if you decide to shut down your business at some point, you are still a success. For everything that you did up until that point. And you're success for recognizing when it's time to quit, and go do something else. We're almost on up to four years. And I love doing it. It's been so fun. My coach pushed me to do it in 2020. I'm so glad I did, and had some amazing guests on and feel like it's a platform for me to talk about so many different things. So it will continue for sure in some form. I do want to, you and I have been talking about opening it up to you know, do you want to do an episode on occasion? And we may slow down the pace of it. I'm really proud of having an episode a week, every week. And there's actually very few repeats, there have been a couple. But it's almost 200 episodes of brand new content. So that's a lot to consume. And it's a lot to create, as I mentioned, you know, recording the podcast and then editing it and I am finding who's for that. But I reserve the right to you know, maybe we'll go down to twice a month or you know, go to seasonal or I don't know exactly, I haven't totally decided but I'm really proud of what we built. And it's amazing to look back out. You know, that's the win, right? That's a success. It's like, wow, I showed up. I did this every week. And I'm serving people. And it's not even really about me. It's just like, hear people come back and say, I've been following you for years. And you told me this thing. Like I feel like we're friends you know, I get that all the time. When people get on a call. They're like, oh, like, it's you. It's really your voice. It's attached to a body. So it's just been a blast. And it'll continue, but it may shift and change this year.

April
Awesome. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for all of your hard work over these past four years, because we have all learned a lot from it. And yeah, I mean, from my perspective, as the Fuel community manager, I'm trying to learn all the episodes where content is so that when people ask questions, I can say hey, you can find it on episode so you know, a lot of the content that you've created is timeless. And so it can be used even four years later, it's still relevant. You haven't listened to all 200 episodes? Well, you can start there.

Sari
Plenty to start with it. Yeah. People who make their product often are like you're in my head all, you know, every day in the kitchen or you know, for hours I listen to you. I'm glad I'm there with you working if you're listening, and you're in your kitchen while making product.

April
Awesome. Well, thank you for letting me be part of this.

Sari
Oh, my gosh, it's been a blast. Well, thank you to all our Fuel members that we got so many great questions. And this was really fun to co host and have you turned the tables on me. I love it. So thank you, April. Well, I guess I should wrap up and with my line, right? And so until next time, have an amazing week!

Sari
The smartest thing you can do as an entrepreneur is to invest in our who to help you with the how to speed up your journey and help you skip the line. When you are ready for more support and accountability to finally get this thing done. You can work with me in two ways. Get me all to yourself with one on one business coaching, or join Food Business Success which includes membership inside Fuel, our community of food business founders that includes monthly live group coaching calls and so much more. It's one of my favorite places to hang out and I would love to see you there. Go to foodbizsuccess.com to start your journey towards your own Food Business Success.