Full Transcript

Sari  0:00  
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Sari  2:05  
Welcome to your Food Business Success. This podcast is for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged food industry ready to finally turn that delicious idea into reality. I'm your host, Sari Kimbell. I have guided hundreds of food brand founders to success as an industry expert and business coach, and it's got to be fun. In this podcast, I share with you mindset tools to become a true entrepreneur and run your business like a boss, interviews with industry experts to help you understand the business you are actually in and food founder journey, so you can learn what worked and didn't work and not feel so alone in your own journey. Now, let's jump in. 

Sari  2:52  
All right. Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. We are in for a real treat today, a savory treat, I will say. Today I am welcoming Ben Bacon, and he is the founder of Lentiful. And lentiful is a natural food brand based in Colorado. Lentiful creates high protein, high fiber and low sodium mea ls featuring USA grown lentils. They are a plant based and climate friendly superfood. Lentiful launched less than two years ago and has already sold over a half a million lentil meals across America. Their products can be found online at Walmart, Whole Foods, Wegmans, Thrive Market, the fresh market and more. Welcome, Ben.

Ben  3:40  
It's good to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Sari  3:43  
Oh my gosh, so fun. We met. Gosh. Was that two? I guess it was two years ago or year and a half ago, at Fancy Food. Let's see. That would have been 22? Fancy Food 22?

Ben  3:58  
That was our first show. Yeah. Was it winter?

Sari  4:00  
Yeah, Winter in Las Vegas. 

Ben  4:03  
Yeah, yeah.

Sari  4:04  
Do you remember?

Ben  4:05  
I do remember, you were taken like a little group of entrepreneurs around, right? 

Sari  4:12  
You came up and introduced yourself. You're like, I know you.

Ben  4:18  
I've listened to the pod. Absolutely. And I think we've met at a couple, like, Naturally Boulder events too. And so we always say hi to each other. And so it's good to have, like, a 45 minute conversation. I'm excited for this.

Sari  4:32  
Absolutely. So yeah, it was really fun. We got to meet. That was first time that I became aware of your brand. Sounds like your first show launching. And since then you have this last few years, you are just crushing it, and we'll get into your backstory. But just recently, you won the Colorado Collision Pitch Competition. So that was incredible. And then prior to that, you won the Naturally Boulder Pitch Competition. Have you won any other awards this year? 

Ben  5:07  
The Naturally Boulder. Yeah, the national one. 

Sari 5:13  
Oh my gosh, yeah. No big deal. I just beat out all the other.

Ben  5:18  
I have it next to you over there on my my little wall too. So we want an XD at XO lens. It's been a good year.

Sari  5:24  
It's been a good year. Yeah, some people are having a really challenging 2024, but not everybody.

Ben  5:35  
Sometimes it looks easy. It never feels easy. 

Sari  5:37  
I know, and we'll talk about that, because I think that, you know, I do want to get into like. Some might look at you and be like, well, you're just a unicorn, or you're an overnight success, and you have it so easy, and it's never easy, but we will get into that. But take us to the beginning. Take us way back. I love how you open up your pitch slide, even just talking about lentils. So take us all the way back to the beginning. Where did this start? What were you doing before you started this? 

Ben  6:11  
Yeah. I mean, I've had the longest career in corporate America, and I was brand and marketing background for technology companies, for financial companies and but I've always been, like, a healthy person. I've always, like, prided myself on nutrition. And it's back in around 2012, 2015, or so, like, I got involved with a natural food company that made better food pancake mixes, and got the opportunity to go to Expo West. And, like, I mean, for the people that have been to Expo West, you know, like, when you walk in there, it is just, it's totally different world, right? And I remember, within like, 10 minutes, you know, had like, goosebumps. I'm like, I love this industry. I'm going to work in this industry the rest of my career. Yeah. And so I, you know, I kind of poked around the natural food industry. I was always like, you know, leading marketing. Leading marketing teams, or leading, like, online kind of Shopify and Amazon sales types, type things, always on the DTC side. That was kind of my background and worked for, you know, the pancake company, the hot sauce company, instant coffee company, and, like, you know, all along, it's like, you see the inner workings of, like, how these brands are being built. And I always said, like in the back of my mind, like, if I ever come up with the right idea, it would be fun to do this one day, I was never like that kid with the lemonade stands or the entrepreneur. Like, I have never been that type of person, but I always kind of thought, well, maybe I could be, you know, and so what happened was this really was a covid story where the world kind of shut down very, very abruptly. And my wife and I, we have four kids in the house, and we went from, you know, kind of having these normal jobs to all of a sudden being at home all the time, is this shelter in place and things like that. And all along in the background, you know, as my wife and I have gotten into our 40s, we've started to eat more plant based and like, this is not an unusual story. There's millions of Americans that are doing the same thing. They're trying to reduce their meat and they're trying to eat more plants. And there's all this study around how that helps you live longer and age gracefully, and inflammation and like, all of it, right? And we've kind of dabbled in, and I myself have dabbled in it for about 10 years, too. So you do the easy things, you stop drinking regular milk, and you start drinking almond milk, okay, that's easy. Or you stop using your whey protein, you start using pea protein powder before your workouts and, like, that's easy, and then it gets kind of hard. And you know, it's a lot of making salads, it's a lot of meal prep, it's a lot of shopping vegetables, a lot of how am I going to get full? How am I going to get my protein? And so, getting back to that story, you know, we were probably a few weeks into shelter in place here in Colorado. And you know, we're trying to be good Coloradans, not go to King Soopers. That was a madhouse, that was a disaster area. So we have these big pantries in the house. It's like, let's eat what we have in the pantries. And the first couple weeks we're eating the hits, right? We're eating all the things we normally eat. And then a couple weeks later. So what's in the back of the table? And my wife broke literally, one night, I mean, she was digging in the way back, and she found it was like this dusty bag of, like, dried lentils, and it's just this big. And, you know, she looked up a recipe, it was on the pinch of yum blog for this cilantro lime lentils, which we we ended up turning into one of our flavors. But I remember I was, like, two or three bites into this, and I was eating this, and I look at her, I'm like, what am I eating? She goes lentils. And I literally had never thought twice about lentils. Like I couldn't even tell you if I'd ever had them before. And it was one of these things that there's actually, like, a name for this, but like, you see something obscure for the first time, and then you see it, like, everywhere. And, you know, like, literally, the next day I got online, I saw this article the number one thing Americans should be eating, and they're not lentils. And then I'd see all of these, like celebrities or influencers kind of talking about lentils. Like Tim Ferriss talking about lentils, you know, for weight loss, or Dan Buettner in the Blue Zones for years has been talking about lentils. It's like a long food. 

Sari  10:35  
Your reticular activating system was not tuned in. And now.

Ben  10:43  
Reese Witherspoon, I was like, I popped onto Instagram, and she's like, making lentils, mere wild live and like, they're like, and I'm seeing this, and then I'd go to the store and like, there's no lentils, like, there's just the bags of the dried lentils. And, you know, for me, you know, putting together my food background, and then it was, like a personal need, and then kind of seeing a business opportunity. It was really marrying all of those things together. And then I started to become, like the weird guy at the parties, talking to other people about, like lentils, and like, they ever eaten lentils and why didn't and so, like, the answer that I got back from so many people was oh, yeah, I know they're good for you. I know about them. I never make them. They just take too long, or I don't know how to make them. And it really was so. So the first light bulb moment was like eating the lentils that Brooke made. The second light bulb moment was like, maybe six months later. It was a long time. I was grabbing an instant oatmeal cup out of my pantry. I was in a rush, and I heard that rattle, like, maybe we can make instant lentils. And so there was two kind of mini light bulb moments there. That was the second one. You know, I told Brooke about him, like, hey, I think what if we got, like, lentils down to a minute? Like, I could, like, I could eat them more, and, like, we could do all these different flavors. And she kind of thought it was a silly idea, but the more I kind of looked into it. It's like, I actually think there's a market for this. And so then it was really taking the steps of, I tell people, because I never like I literally, I'd never started food comp. This is my first company. Never been a founder before. I knew very like narrow things about selling through Shopify or Amazon. I didn't know anything about starting a company from scratch. And so it was literally just Google is your best friend for months. And if you don't know how to do something, you Google it. If you don't like, look on YouTube. Like, look for these explainer videos. Listen to your podcast, which I started to do. And I started listening to Allie Kane's podcast and all these other podcasts. And you start here, and you start piecing together this information. You're like, it gives you confidence. And you're like, you know what, I can do this. And this is not black magic, and this is not like, only the smartest people can like it, because I don't consider myself a really smart but like, you can do this, right? And so anyway, I just started building that confidence and taking those steps, finding the right food scientists to help me make it, you know, shelf stable and commercialize the recipe ideas that I had, finding a co packer, that was a very long process. I can talk about that, and then just slowly but surely, kind of getting to launch. And it was probably an 18 to 24 month process. I mean, think about what was covid like, spring of 2020 I didn't launch until November of 2022, at the very end of 2022 so it takes a long time, and it can take shorter. I'm solo founder, and so like, I feel like it took me twice as long as I see these other teams that have two or three founders. I'm jealous, because it's like they can do a divide and conquer. So, but we launched at the end of November 2022.

Sari  13:35  
Yeah, amazing. You also had that at your pitch. You had the map of the US and how I didn't realize we even grew lentils. So that must have done another little one of those aha moments. 

Ben  13:47  
It was. And so during that two year period, it's like, all right, am I like you always hear about, you always hear about, like, product market fit, right? But there's also this thing that I think is important, called founder product fit. And, you know, I look at some people like, Fly By Jing, she has a great founder product fit, where it's like a very cool story, and she made this company, and like it fits and like, there are other companies like that. Part of my hesitation was like, am I qualified to start a lentils company? I literally had never thought twice about that before. You know, a year ago, lentils a lot. And by the way, I'm not vegan and, but I'm trying to, like, you know, get there, and, you know, it's like, I'm on the older side of things, and I don't know, I'm not a chef, and, like, all of these things where I'm like, can I do this, right? And it finally hit me one day that maybe all of this is a benefit and not you know, detractor, and maybe I'm able to bring products to a market for people like me, because I'm in their shoes. I'm in the thick of it. I know what it's like. I know how hard it is to eat less meat eat more plants. I know what kind of flavor profiles that would make me happy, and which ones won it. And so, long story short, part of that process was learning a lot about the lentil market. And I read this book called Surrender Somewhere Lentil Underground. And it was about this farm in Montana that was using, these renegade farmers that were using lentils for regenerative agriculture and using lentils as cover crop. There's a ton of like, climate friendly benefits to lentils that they are carbon negative. They pull nitrogen from the air, or carbon from the air, and turn the nitrogen in the ground, and all of this stuff where it's like, it's a very, very climate friendly source of protein. And then, as I'm reading this, I'm finding out there's this lentil belt right in Montana, and then that skinny part of Idaho and Eastern Washington where America grows these world class lentils. Then I started doing more research around it. I found this article from 1997 in the New York Times, and it's called The Lentil Bell. They are literally interviewing these farmers 27 years ago now, and they're talking about how they're making these world class lentils. And they have all these different varietals. They've got the pardina and the black beluga, and like they're talking about all these different varietals, and these farmers were almost like lamenting the fact that they were so prideful of them, but Americans didn't eat them. And so the market really is overseas. And so they export the vast majority of them overseas to places like Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, you know, places like Pakistan and India, where the demand is just so high, they like our lentils. I thought that was really interesting. I was like, oh my gosh. That was part of, again, it's like, I think entrepreneurs are good at, like, connecting dots. That was a dot. That was like, oh my gosh. Like, here you have all of these people in America that are trying to eat less meat, eat more plants, and then you got these things like impossible and beyond me, and they're not taking off because they're just overly processed and like you can see Americans turning their nose at them, but you got something like lentils that are very face neutral, that are high in protein, high in fiber, things that Americans love. They're right here at our feet, here in America? The answer is, right here at our feet, right? And I was like, and so I was like, oh my gosh. And there are other I think when you're starting a company, you need to take a look around see what are some aspirational brands, and for me to really stuck out. One is Bonza, and what they've built, I know the founder brothers. They were fantastic people. They basically, at the time, took this very niche ingredient, chickpeas, and they built, you know, this whole platform brand around them, and now chickpea pasta is like a pantry staple in America. They cross the chasm from this underappreciated ingredient to conventional mainstream, where it's the number one best selling pasta in Target, Kroger and things like that. So that's one company. Another one is cauliflower. And what Gail has built over there did the same thing. You know, back when she started, no one was talking about Caulipower, like no one, but now like Caulipower pizza is a thing, Caulipower baking mixes and things like that. All the things. All it takes is one brand that can come along and you have to, you know, kind of catch lightning in a bottle, but just catch the imagination of Americans where it's like, okay, this is something I can incorporate into my diet, because it's kind of hitting on what I'm looking for nutritionally. And it's a fun brand. It doesn't taste, I mean, it tastes great. So anyway, my vision was maybe we can create the bonds of for lentils and Caulipower, right? And that's part of the naming strategy too. Was like, I want lentil in that name, right? Yeah. And so Lentiful was a good way to do that.

Sari 18:30  
Yeah, it's such a perfect name. And yeah, it sounds like you were very entrepreneurial curious. You were open, but you weren't like, I'm born to be an entrepreneur, but you just were open and curious. And you just kind of kept, yeah, I call it like pulling the thread, right? You just kept pulling the thread.

Ben  18:50  
Pulling the thread. Chipping away. 

Ben  18:52  
And you were patient. You weren't in a rush. I think that's a big deal, right? Let's not be in a rush, when possible. I'm assuming you were still working full time. 

Ben  19:02  
Not full time. I started to pull back, you know, as consulting part time. I mean, another benefit that I, you know, my wife, she has a great job, right? And we're kind of on the old I keep saying we're old. We're in our upper 40s, but, like, we've been in corporate America a long time, and so we, you know, built up some capital over the years, and we had a little bit to invest in a company like this, I feel for like, when I talked to, I do talk to a lot of founders that are starting out, and they're in their 20s, and they're just and they have an advantage, where they have all the time in the world. They don't have four kids, they don't have to drive a kid to softball and dance and things like that. But they also have some downsides, which is they don't have a lot of money saved up, right? So it's all trade offs, and you know, you're never in the perfect situation to start a company.

Sari  19:49  
This whole becoming a CEO thing can be a little daunting, especially if you've never done it before and you are just so focused on being the maker of your product, but your business requires you to step into the role of a CEO. But if you want help, I have a CEO checklist that you can go and grab for free. Go to foodbiz, success.com. Forward slash CEO. This will help you to understand what you need to be doing each week when you put on your CEO hat, the more you can make time to work on your business and not just be in your business, the faster you will be able to grow and scale and create the business you love.

Sari  20:44  
There's no perfect, yeah. Like, I mean, we also had all the money and all the time, right? That'd be amazing. But most of us have constraints, and we just have different constraints we have to work around. So then you launched, tell us about a little bit about your actual launch was Fancy Food, one of the first ones that you did that winter show?

Ben  21:06  
It was, you know. So these cups, right? I mean, they're, this is one of our flavors, I had to take a look at the manufacturing behind those cups, right? And there's only so many cupping lines in America. And I talked to to just about all of them. And at the time, I didn't have this. It was just really me in a dream, right? And I'm saying, hey, I think instant lentils could be a thing. And so I got a lot of no's, and there was a lot of cupping lines that were just way too big, right? And they did cut. They did cupping for like ConAgra or Kellogg's or whatever. So it's like, you cross that off. And I found the perfect co packer for us that was willing to take a chance on us. And I think the initial minimum order quantity was eight, like, I think 8000 cups. And so that was per flavor, and I had to do four flavor. So I'm sorry that was 32,000 cups that I had to make that first run.

Sari  22:01  
I'm sure that felt like a lot in the world of manufacturing. You know, that's actually a low minimum. 

Ben  22:07  
I think these, I think these numbers are helpful to share too. And like my mind, my mindset at the time, where I remember going on a walk around the neighborhood with Brooke, I'm like, should we do? This is 32,000 cups, and I remember it just kind of hit me, like, and these have a long shelf life. It's 12 months. I'm like, if I can't sell these cups in a year, I just need to, like, step down, right? It's a good test. And, you know, I had enough outs in that contract where if it wasn't going well, I'd be able to walk away, maybe pay for one quarter's worth of line time. But it was really quarterly shifts, you know, 30,000 so it's like, in theory, it's like, alright, we'll make about 120,000 cups in year one. And we did, right? We made those cups, we sold them. All we did. We did half a million in revenue. We actually sold out, like seven times. And so it was a good first year. But getting back to your question, that the launch strategy is, you know, we had that initial batch of, you know, 32,000 cups, right? This was, in hindsight, I probably should have been more aggressive, but I kind of wanted to just get it out there and see what people thought. And again, there wasn't a huge sense of urgency where, all right, do friends and family like it? Okay, that's great. But do their friends and family like, will they tell their friends and family about it? Or do I have to, like, hound them or pester them? Or will they do it on their own because they like like it so much? And then those reviews start coming in, and you get the reviews from the friends and family, and you're like, okay, this is good. But then you get the reviews from strangers, and you're like, this is really good. And we start building up those reviews. I tell founders this all the time. In those early days, you almost have to send personal emails, like, we're a small business. We're a family business. Reviews are our lifeblood. Like this is how we can survive. Please leave us a review and don't say only if you like it, if you like it, if you don't like it, like we want to hear about it. This is the only way we can get better and we can grow. And the good news is, all those initial reviews were very, very good. They're still good, but it gave me confidence, right where it's like that next production time came around. Like, we haven't really sold through all of our cups, but I, I felt confident, like we will, right? And so the first six months, it was pretty quiet, I'm not going to lie, like I kind of thought, like, you know, more things would happen, but I was still seeing some positive signs. I was probably a little bit too timid to start Facebook advertising. I don't really know why, part of me was like, we're like, because I've seen like, like, you put things out there, and people are kind of brutal on Facebook and Instagram. Like, this is a stupid idea, or this is too expensive, or whatever. And I kind of like, tiptoed in there probably about six months after launch, like, we have to start moving some product. And so we put up these ads, and literally within seconds, people were on the site, and they were buying, and it was, it was, like, it was a tremendous green flag. I started, like, $50 a day. And I remember that I was like, we'll see how this goes. And we got $215 in sales that day. I'm like, that's pretty darn good. And I started slowly dialing it up. And it's like, every day it was probably like, those early days, is like, 4 or 5x for every dollar we were putting in.

Sari  25:13  
Why? Because I think sometimes people are like, yeah, I'll just put it on Facebook ads and the ads bomb, like, they spend a lot of money. And clearly you have some background in this. You didn't just like, totally your way, like you have some good background. I mean, this is one of your superpowers, right, that you brought in from your previous career. So if you could explain, like, why do you think those ads, and the ads you continue to work run work so well, because they're simple?

Ben  25:47  
They're very simple, right? And a couple things, it has to be really like, it has to be something that people can kind of wrap their head around, like, a couple seconds and instant lentils, people know, it's like, oh, this is something healthy fast. And they kind of like, just kind of get it. And so that's the first step. The second step is, can they get it? Can they get it anywhere, right? I feel for people that, like, have a nut butter company where it's like, they're doing Facebook ads. It's like, people see nothing, like, okay, I got I can go to any store in America and get nut butter. You can't do that with instant lentils like you, like, we're not even in stores. Like, if you want instant lentils, you got to buy here, right? And so I one of my favorite phrases is, don't try to be the best, just be the only. And so be something that's very unique, but also don't be weird. Be something that people can really just kind of, like, wrap their head around pretty quickly. And so there's that from a high level, right? And then you kind of get into all, right, what is this going to look like? And I designed these cups, you know, through a designer where I wanted this to almost like, I didn't want this to look like a healthy, earthy brand part, like, I actually think I have a little bit of a soapbox if you go to like, Vitamin Cottage or Sprouts or Whole Foods like, and you walk up and down the house, you'll see a lot of boring healthy brands, and those don't get people excited on Facebook or Instagram, like they're just like, okay, yeah, this looks like it's going to be healthy. And they'll use words like heirloom or provisions, and I honestly think that is all like code words for, like, dirt. This is not going to taste good. And I had a designer, and we were kind of in the early phases, and I was sending her pictures of cups of Jenny's ice cream, and I'm like, let's make it look like this, and let's make it a vibe. Let's make it a whole experience to people. Because there's a preconceived notion, I think, out there with plant based eating and lentils specifically where it's like, this isn't going to taste great.

Ben  25:52  
We know it's good for us, but it's going to taste like dirt.

Ben  27:53  
And so you have to, like, overcompensate with the packaging, yeah, and make it like, really and like, the brand is really big, the colors are really bright. And this is not something you would expect lentils to be in, right? So there's the packaging piece, and then there's the photography piece. And this is another thing I recommend, is like, invest in good photography. Don't do like, the AI stuff that's cheap, or, you know, your friend like, I mean, I know people like, if you have a budget, spend money on and DTC, and if DTC is part of your launch strategy, like, you're going to grow this business via DTC, you got to invest in good content or photography. And so that was one that I did invest in through an agency, Garnish Studios. They're fantastic. But we did these close ups of it was, they're very simple. It was like, really kind of like head on. And it was like the fork, when just like a big thing of lentils on the fork. You think about, maybe my favorite brand right now, is Goodles. And if you think about what they're doing on that box, they've got that fork, and they've got this really decadent kind of like, you know, little fork full of mac and cheese. And people like to see what that end product looks like, and they want to make sure that it looks good, it's appetizing. And so really, it's the cup, the branding, and the fork full of lentils, and then something at the top with a copy that just says, you know, healthy lunch in a minute, you know. And this is what people are looking for. Again, it's like, and I never want to, like, poopoo, like a founder's idea or but don't expect success on Facebook or Instagram if you were one of many out there, it's just at work, they can go to any store in America and buy something similar, because people are lazy. You have to have something really unique and compelling and different and not weird. You kind of have to make it like, makes like. And again, I'm not picking on anyone's like, but when I see things like, we have new a trope, cookie. Or something like that. I'm like, okay, are people going to be going out of their way to get that?

Sari  
It sounds like finding the right marketing strategy and the intersections. I mean, you know, you really found your blue ocean here, where there was literally no instant level.

Ben  
If there is, you know, it's like in the plastic bags, it's usually like in an Indian cuisine. And I think for us, we, like, we our best stats are those carousels where it's like they got Mexican and Thai and French and homestyle, all these different like. So it's like, variety is another big thing that I think people are looking for too. So those ads also do good. And I can't, I can't overstate this enough, they do good because we start putting up these ads after we had a pretty strong basis of customers. And I remember some of the first ads we put out there, all of a sudden, people like all of our it would kind of like, I kind of had a retargeting element in there. So if, like, people were on our site and they were buying, they were kind of getting these ads. And so the early ads went to a lot of people that had already bought, and they're like, oh my gosh, I love this. And they went like, God bless them, because I don't even do this. But like, they went out there and they're like, this is my favorite lunch, and my favorite flavor is the Thai, my favorite flavor is the French. And like, oh my gosh, I eat this four times a week. And like, all of a sudden, like these ads. And I still have these like ads running, because they have such an incredible social proof, they will have hundreds of comments from people across America talking about how much they like it. So when you are looking at an ad on Facebook and you see, wait, there's 475 comments, you're curious. You want to see what those so you click on it, and then you're like, oh, and then you go to the website, and then I have a banner at the top says free shipping on everything. I think that's very important. Build that into your pricing. We talk about that. And then all the, all the five star reviews, right? And then price it at something that's like an impulse purchase price, like, I literally worked backwards, where I'm like, how do I get a variety pack out there for less than $40? It has to start with a three. Because I think when people see like ads on Facebook or Tiktok or Instagram or whatever, it's really hard to get them to buy something for $50, $60, $70 like, right out of the gate. And so I think pricing was an important part of that success too. 

Sari  
Again, you kind of have this. I don't want to make you out to be like a unicorn, because I know you've had challenges, and this isn't always easy, but you have a shelf stable product that is like, there's market demand for plant based and protein and things actually tasting good. There's people looking for fast, quick, healthy things. You also have a like, your shipping is also low ish, right, comparatively, because it's paper and, you know, they add the water themselves, so it's lighter on the shipping side. You know, I had a category here that was very sleepy. So, I mean, you had a lot of really great things going for you. And there's, you know, kudos to you for like, you're clearly the one who was supposed to bring all of this together and, you know, charge on the lentil movement. But I'm curious, what do you say to somebody who has a heavy product, something in glass, something that, you know, I mean also, your ingredients are pretty low cost too, so you're able to price it at a lower cost. 

Ben  
It's a different strategy. And, you know, it's really hard. I don't know if I have great advice, right, but, and I know, I know founders that have these products that are heavy in their glass, and it's not to say it can't be done, but like the way that, just in two years, I've seen our Facebook and Instagram ad costs go like, through the roof, and it makes it harder and harder to make money on that platform. And so I would, I'm not saying like to rethink your packaging or anything like that, or your products. It's just, it's definitely more brick and mortar first and D to C second, right? Yeah, you can do more. And I know there's ways to do this where it's like, okay, we're going to sell in these three states online, right? And that you can lower your shipping costs that way. I mean, there are ways to, kind of like gate it. It just really kind of minimizes your overall market size. 

Sari  
Well, and you guys also, I mean, I have to do an eight pack, right? I think there's ways. I think it's about communicating the value, but then also being very strategic about the bundles and how you work it, and being strategic about your packaging and your shipping materials and all of that too. Optimize it as much as you can.

Ben  
And I am a big, big, big fan of who else is doing this that has been successful, and what are they doing? And, you know, for us, I think when I was like, when I was starting to build those like Facebook ad campaigns. I'm like, what kind of ads should we run? I was out there on the Facebook ad library. Just Google it, and you can put in any brand, and you can see all the ads that they're running. And you can kind of see, hmm, okay, these these types of ads they've been running for, gosh, eight months. This ad must be doing really well, or they're trying a lot of different things around getting people to go to King Soopers. Let's see how that works. Like but look at brands that you admire, who's doing it well. What kind of things are they doing? And start emulating a lot of that. I mean, there, you know, there are lots and lots of smart people at these companies that have kind of cracked the code on these things that you don't necessarily have to crack yourself.

Sari  
Yeah, I love that. That's a great idea. And, you know, one thing I always really recommend people do, and you did this in your photos, is that you get some human body parts in there, right? Don't just have your product in a nice background, you know, like you're showing people eating it, you're showing the actual product. You're, you know, you weren't even showing faces, but just the hand. 

Ben  
I think that's even better. I think a smiling face enjoying your product, nothing beats that in an ad. 

Sari  
So I love that, I mean, and we're going to keep talking, and actually we better we were moving along here, because this will, conversation was going to go fast. But I think if I could, like, boil down some of you know, a lot of your success, I mean, the reviews, you really focused on the reviews. And I love that, I think founders are so hesitant, like, they're like, okay, hope you like it, leave us a review, right? And you're saying, like, I had to go and like, be like, hey, really need you to do this, at least your core friends and family, till you get the machine rolling right. So, reviews, super, super important. And then you were willing to make some investments up front. I mean, you said, you know, I started $50 a day. Like, it does take more than your I'm going to boost this for $5. 

Ben  
No, because I and this is another piece of advice if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of Facebook ads and meta ads, but like you have to invest enough. They call it seasoning the pixel right where that the ad, the algorithm only gets smarter if it has a large enough sample size to work from, and so you want to aim, this is kind of hard for some like 10, 20, 50, conversions a week. What it does is it's giving, hey, here's 50 success stories to that algorithm. And so next week, when it starts to target, it knows, Gail and Granda of Michigan, really likes Lentifull. Let's find more people like Gail in these other metro areas based on some of the things that she already likes, but if you're only doing $5 or $10 a day, it's not going to get smart enough to do that. We won't have a big enough sample size.

Sari  
So when you're running, we talk about running lead ads, which is a different kind of thing, but when you're talking like direct to purchase kind of ads, you have to be willing to take a bigger risk and make a bigger investment. And you got lucky, but sometimes it takes weeks of tweaking and tuning, right? Yeah, longer. So you hung in there. You did that. I do want to talk about kind of just for time. We'll have to skip ahead, because I know you know, lots of things have happened in two years, but I love that you really, sounds like you really focused on a d to c, your direct to consumer strategy. Where was your kind of wholesale mindset? And can you tell us a little bit about how that's evolved?

Ben  
I mean, I had no wholesale mindset. I was just like, it was such a and I still, to this day, I'll tell anyone like that, that's my blind spot, and it's something I'm trying to get better at as a founder. But it was almost like I was hoping it would just kind of like, stay off to the side for a while until we got big enough on DTC, and not saying we're going to be like, magic spoonering like that, but like I was like, You know what? Maybe just be DTC for a couple years, right? And I get my sea legs under me as a founder and figure out production runs and supply chain and stuff like that. It was, gosh, probably maybe a month after I started running those Facebook ads, I got a note through our website from the category buyer at the fresh market who saw the Facebook ad, he saw the reviews, he's like, we'd love to have this. And that was, like, the first time where I'm like, okay, now I've got to see if I'm ready for wholesale and ready for retail. And it's 160 stores and it's on the other side of the country, and I did my due diligence, and, you know, I made sure that those entry costs weren't too prohibitive. And you know, I had the right supplier or the right distributor, I decided to stay away from Unified for the time being. I went with a distributor called Shax, which is a great, like, regional distributor that services the fresh market. So I made sure everything was just like easy, right? And said, yes. That, and then very quickly started getting the same types of and this is weird, but the same types of notes through our website, from the buyers from Thrive Market and Walmart, Whole Foods approached me to show. They all kind of had seen that online momentum and wanted to bring that into their stores. And so whereas I thought like I wouldn't have to deal with retail until year two or three, I was having to deal with it in year one, and I had to kind of quickly wrap my head around it. And we're still wrapping our head around it. We're getting into a lot of stores as we speak, so because that was about it, you know, a year ago. And these things take time. And so anyway, I don't know if I have a ton of great advice around the wholesale go to market strategy. It was mostly inbound. 

Sari  
I mean, you didn't plan that to be a strategy, but that's actually the strategy that I often recommend to people. I mean, it depends on the product, and certainly a product like yours that's easily shippable and single serve and some of these things, but it is so expensive to try to launch into national retail or even regional retailers, right? Either you have to take that very slow growth approach where you're like, I'm in these little local, you know, these little local stores, and I'm growing my very local wholesale. Maybe you're on Fair, and you're trying to get into, you know, similar side, like these small independents, but in other areas of the states, and then you're going to work your way up into that, into wholesale. And it's a long process, it's an expensive process. It is very unlikely that a buyer, maybe, like, you know you went, you did decide to go to Fancy Food, which is a wholesale, but you know, that's mostly buyers in there. So that was, you weren't totally opposed to wholesale clearly, you wanted to get the name out there at least, you know, let people start seeing it. But it's pretty rare when a buyer is like, oh, we're going to take you right off the street and pull you in, you know, to Nationals.

Ben  
That's where it gets back to you. It's better to be very unique and have something that they don't have on shelf than try to be a better version of what they already have on shelf. I think that's kind of harder to sell into. 

Sari  
It is. But, you know, the strategy I typically recommend is like, go build up your direct to consumer, and then you have data, and you have all these, like, I mean, the reviews are what got you. Like, that's what, that's why people were reaching out. Like, yes, the lentils, the photos. But those buyers, and I know you told me, like, the Walmart buyer saw that you had, but you have like, 5000 reviews or something in here?

Ben  
We have 1000s of Facebook comments, and she saw that, and then she went on the website, and at the time we probably had around, you know, 1000 reviews, and you just got, but also the the kind of reviews that you're getting too. I mean, there's a difference between, oh, this tastes good, and, like, right, oh my gosh, this is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, but you're exactly right though buyers look at reviews, and that is why I think these DTC focused companies early on have a little bit of a leg up on some of these other ones that where you just you're able to point more social proof, like people already like it, less of a risk. 

Sari  
But that's, I mean, I tried to, like, I propose this strategy to a lot of people like, go get the stores asking for you to come into the store. They're going to be a lot. You know, as a small brand, it's very expensive to go into a retailer and all the fees and all the things, and yes, now you're having to deal with that, but you have a lot more leverage as a small brand, because they are asking you to come on shelf, and they're willing to do different terms and flexibility. 

Ben  
They will absolutely work with you on store accounts. And so Whole Foods and Walmart, I was able to kind of say, hey, this is kind of what I feel comfortable with. So with Whole Foods, we started with two regions that like their lowest tier, and on the West Coast, with North Carolina, Pacific Northwest, and that was actually closest to our manufacturing site. So it's easy for you, like, so they were very flexible. And in Walmart, I'm like, let's, I mean, it's like, I can't go into 4500 stores, but it's like, what can we do with, like, maybe three or 400 stores. We're in 370 is the final count, and they're 376 and like, so they are very much willing to work with you. And I would say, never put yourself in a position where something doesn't work out, you're out of business. Like, if Walmart fails, like, we'll be fine. We've got a thriving DTC business. We've got all these other retailers, like, we're not beholden to one retailer, like working or not working, and so I would say that's really smart advice. 

Sari  
Now we're have one thing that's going to break the bank and the whole company. I love that. But you had to start somewhere. You first started with DTC. Now you're expanding and growing, and I'm assuming, like you're bringing your whole operation along. Have you changed co packers? Are you still working with the same one?

Ben  
Still working with the same one. And that was the beauty. Yeah. I mean, and this is why I picked them, which is they were willing to dip down with me to that MOQ, but they can scale nationally, and they service a lot of other really big natural food brands nationally. And so there's no growing pains. So again, it's finding that right partner, that and we could have found a really small packer and moved, I mean, lots of companies have to do this. So it's for us, it was just something that we we've been able to grow with them. 

Sari  
So I wanted to talk, in our last few minutes just about, kind of putting on that CEO hat, and how you are evolving now as you're going into year three. That's pretty wild. But, you know, we talk a lot in Master Your Business, about becoming the CEO of your business, and really making time to understand the financials of the business, the organizational structure, like, how you make decisions, because I'm sure there's this part of you that's like, Walmart, oh my gosh, right. And you're like, doing backflips, but the CEO in you has to do the analysis. Has to look and say, is this actually a smart decision right now? So how have you evolved over these and how do you see yourself evolving?

Ben  
I would say, and this would be my recommendation, is, until you get to that million dollar run rate, you do it all. And I hate to, I mean, unless you have a unique financial situation where you can afford to bring on lots of resources and this is kind of what I did, where it's like, I am writing the Klaviyo emails. I'm changing the Shopify code. I am calculating how many pounds of dried tomato I need for my next production run. I'm sending off that PO, trying to do a bare bones QuickBooks, kind of like update and like all of these things you have to do yourself up to a certain point, because you just can't afford it, right? And I mean, and so, and then it was once I got to that million dollar mark ish was like, I kind of cried uncle. And I'm like, okay, I got to start letting some things go. And I hired a bookkeeper and brought them on. That's been a great decision. The really, the lion's share of what was taken up my time was as the production runs went from quarterly to bi monthly, and now they're monthly, and they were at 30,000 now we're, I think we ran 82,000 cups last week. It's like, we're like, just getting bigger and what a lot more complexities logistically, I sought out and found a great, great person to help me on the upside, Thomas, and he has had great experience at the new primal and high key and like he has seen companies go from 1 million to 20 million in a hurry. And not saying we're going to do that, but he's kind of like, been there, done that, and so it was great because he got us plugged into sin seven, our inventory management system. When we started talking to Walmart, he got us connected with RJW, and now we have a consolidator, and we've got good management around that. Like all the trucks are leading on time all across the country. All the ingredients are showing up on our co packer on the date that they're needed. All of this stuff is happening because of him, right? And so that was something I'm glad I did the first year. I'm glad I understand how hard that is. I understand all the complexities that are involved with it, but it was good to pass that off. So now it's like I'm focused a little bit more on the sales and marketing side, and then also I got a little bit of help on the financial projections and the like that that FPNA is what they call it. So we were in the process of bringing that on. I really need to understand, like, what my working capital requirements are, because way different, going from half a million revenue to 2 million to 5 million, like, when you have a lot of inventory of a lot of AR, like, it is just, you are putting a lot of money out there. It's like, just tied up and on the shelf somewhere. Or, you know, you just, it's that long cash cycle. So getting help there, right? And so all one thing that I'm not giving up, and I don't know if I'm going to give it up anytime soon, it's the customer service stuff. I love this. I love hearing from customers I have an issue with my order, or thanks for making this flavor. Or have you thought about doing this like that? Like I will happily carve out an hour of my day, even though I could outsource that to someone at a fraction of my cost. I still think it's really important. I actually I heard the athletic brewing CEO talk about how the first 18 months he ran the social media. I was like, yeah, yeah. Like, you have to, like, in order to hear like, that early feedback and to see who's following you and see how people are sharing it. It's like part of my day is getting on Instagram and Facebook and commenting on the stories of people sharing. And like, all of this stuff, like, you'd have to do, but to get back to, like, your question about stepping up or becoming the CEO, something I still struggle with, right? I've had a little bit of work College Tennessee, which is not great, and I have, like, control issues. And like, that's not great either. And like, I do need to do a better job of, kind of delegating some more things as we find the right people and like, whether it's like, probably mostly contract or kind of like, gig economy type workers to help us, we'll be able to get more things done. But for now, because I'm so, you can say I'm cheap, or you can say I'm bootstrapped. You say whatever it's like, I'm very focused on doing, and I'm running as lean in operation as possible, because you have when you're under 5 million, when you're under 2, you have to run lean to get to that break even, to get to start eking out profits, because this is such an expensive business. And so like, while I'd love to just hire staff from day one, you can't, you almost have to be busting at the seams until and then, then you add someone on.

Sari  
Right, and I think it's the different. It's like, there have to be times where you put on the CEO hat and focused on the vision. Where are we going? Let's look at the financials, the forecast. And then there are times when you are, like, you said, you're answering, you're putting on your customer service hat, and you're answering those emails and but finding, yeah, I mean, you continually developing your skills, and obviously you came in with a lot of great management skills already. So that was a benefit that you had. 

Ben  
I mean, I had like two decades of managing teams in corporate America, and so that's another thing I'll warn people, and this is something I wasn't prepared for is when you are a food entrepreneur, when you were, when you were a solo founder, it is a lonely job. And there are long stretches of the day where you're staring at your computer on the spreadsheet or the project you're working on. And as like, I'm extroverted and like, there's a big chunk of me that misses going into an office and having a team and going out for a lunch or sales conferences and like, all this. So you do have to really learn how to be okay and, like, just focusing on a specific project in solitude, put on some music, or go for a walk if you need to, like, come up with some creative ideas. It's a much different day to day.

Sari  
And you have no boss. You are the boss. You don't have anybody that's like, I mean. 

Ben  
And there's good and bad to bad too. I was thinking today, like, I need to have a buddy, maybe not on the team, but like, someone I could just be, like, every Sunday, like, you know, like, I need to get these three things done this week. And like, I don't need you to understand them. Like, I'll come back next time and tell you if I did it or not. Like, so anyway, I'm in the market for an accountability partner. 

Sari  
Love that well, and that's what we do in Master Your Business, and in my programs, is to have that accountability, whether it's myself or the community. And so, I mean, you are obviously very self driven, self motivated. You had some great experience that you were able to translate, which gave you a leg up. You also, you know, we talked about all the other amazing things that were in your favor. But it doesn't mean this is an easy business. And I think what I heard from you, which I won't ask for specific numbers, but for the sales that you are doing, you are still working on breaking even and creating profit. 

Ben  
I mean, we'll, I'm happy to share, like, I think it's important to share numbers, I mean, to excite you feel comfortable, but like we're probably going to be either at 2 million or probably just shy of 2 million, which is more than tripling the business from last year. And I feel super happy about that. And we actually last two months, we've been in the black, right? So I think this tail end. So the DTC stuff is very hard. It's very hard to make money. If you're if your overall breakeven, great. When you layer on like, I think we shipped like, 50 pallets, like, of product to wholesale like, and these are like Walmart and Wegmans like. These are eDLP. These are profitable like, accounts like Thrive. It's going to like in the last four months, hopefully get us to a point where we can break even at 2 million in revenue. And my goal next year, again, it's like really hard to raise money right now, and if you do, you're going to give away a big chunk of your company. And, like, I think we could do that, but I'm kind of having too much funded like to go off and do that dog and pony show. So if I can get the working capital, we can do 4 or 5 million next year, or maybe we can drop down a profit. I'm trying to get to a self sustaining business as soon as possible. To do that, though, you need to get to scale, which is why sometimes it's like these smaller, like, start local, and like yes to all of that. But it's going to be a long road to get to the scale. You need to to kind of start trying to run around much longer. Yeah, it was, that was a surprise. 

Sari  
Run out of cash, usually, more than more often, or they run out of heart, right? If you're making, I mean, you did outsource the production, right? That is. When you outsource from day one, and so there are a lot of people who are listening, who are making their own product, and that's okay, but you're going to have less bandwidth to do all the other things, so you might need to outsource elsewhere or find, you know, bring in support. But you also, these businesses require cash. Thank you for sharing your numbers, because it is really helpful for people to to understand and it's been such a pleasure, I can't believe that time just flew by. So Ben, do you want to share where people can find you? Because everybody should definitely go and follow all your social media and all the things and go check out and see what you're doing, if not just for inspiration alone. So share where people can find you. 

Ben  
Just Google Lentiful will pop right up. Eatlentifull.com and if you use the discount code, FBS20, Food business Success 20, we'll give you 20% off your first store.

Sari  
We'll put that in the show notes so people have the link. But I mean, they're so fun. I had some the other day after you gave us a bunch after your competition win, and they're so delicious and they're so fun and playful. And I think you guys can learn a lot from Ben and what he's doing over at lentiful, as he's also learning a lot from other people. 

Ben  
For sure, every day. Love it. 

Sari  
Well thanks for giving up your time and sharing your insights. Really, really helpful. Thank you, Ben.

Ben  
Thanks, Sari, I really appreciate being on the show today. Thanks for having me. 

Sari  
Thank you so much to my guest, Ben Bacon of Lentiful, that was an incredible conversation. I'm sure you got a ton from that. And if you feel like you need some support, you want that accountability partner. You need the tools and the skills of like, what does it look like to actually create a business that can scale, that has the right foundations in place, that you heard Ben, that he set up on his own, which is incredible, but many of us don't have those skills. We don't know this stuff, but I do, and I help teach it to CPG founders, and I want to encourage you, if you're feeling like, yes, I need support on this. Go to masteryourbiz.co and apply today. Until next time, have an amazing week!

Sari  
The smartest thing you can do as an entrepreneur is to invest in a who to help you with the how to speed up your journey and help you skip the line. When you are ready for more support and accountability to finally get this thing done, you can work with me in two ways. Get me all to yourself with one on one business coaching or join Food Business Success, which includes membership inside Fuel our community of food business founders, that includes monthly live group coaching calls and so much more. It's one of my favorite places to hang out, and I would love to see you there. Go to foodbizsuccess.com to start your journey towards your own Food Business Success.