Full Transcript

Stephanie 0:00
Welcome to Food Business Success. This is the podcast for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged goods industry, ready to turn that delicious idea into a real business. I'm your host Stephanie Robbins, and for nearly 30 years, I've been building and growing brands. Now, as a coach and mentor, I help founders sidestep the most common and avoidable mistakes. This podcast is about helping you see those pitfalls before you fall into them. In each episode, we'll bring you practical advice, information, and industry experts who focus specifically on early stage brands, so you're getting what you need for where you are today. Now, let's jump in.

Stephanie 0:43
Hi all. I'm really excited for today's show. I sat down with Peter Moore of EcoEnclose, and we took a look at sustainable packaging and what sustainable actually means. Peter unpacks some great ideas that show how accessible sustainability can be for early stage brands, for all brands really, we talked about compostable packaging, greenwashing, and the most important takeaway for everybody at every stage, but especially when you're early and just starting out, and that is progress over perfection. So I think you're going to love this conversation, and let's go dive in.

Stephanie 1:26
All right, I am so excited. Today, my guest is Peter Moore, director of business development at Eco Enclose. Peter has been in packaging for the better part of a decade, and he came at it from an unusual angle. He got started in the Boulder Natural Products community, leading operations for Naturally Boulder, helping brands establish and scale before moving into flexible film and digital printing. And just a note about Naturally Boulder: anyone who is in the natural products world should definitely look for their local Naturally Network community. So I'm in the Bay Area. I'm a very active member in Naturally NorCal. It's a really great organization for finding support. So I just love that. That's how you came in. And anyway, so Peter went on and got into flexible film and digital pack printing. So that's the world of pouches and barrier structures, and the decisions food brands make before product hits the shelf. Really thinking about that early stage, early getting to shelf, getting to shelf well. I love that. So today he's dedicated to sustainable packaging, working with food and beverage brands, CPG brands on packaging that decreases environmental impact. I just love that. That's what you're doing, and I'm so excited to hear more. So welcome, Peter, and you know, tell me more about the world of sustainable packaging and yourself.

Peter 3:10
Yeah, of course, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. The short version you covered it really well. I work with food CPG brands predominantly on packaging, mostly pouches, flexible films. Also, throw in a little retail carton here and there, and specifically on how to make those decisions without sacrificing things like cost, convenience, and ultimately getting your product into the right package to preserve the products as needed. That's really the most important part. You know, food is in a package for a reason, preserving the shelf life, and I've been on both sides of it, like you mentioned, the conventional side, and now on the sustainable material side, which I think makes me a little bit more useful as we take a holistic look at packaging. Yeah, and I appreciate the call out to the Naturally Network and Naturally Boulder. I started there as director of operations, really building that organization locally, and also was instrumental in building the network as a whole with folks like Naturally Chicago and Naturally North Bay at the time. And really great to just see where that network has grown and exploded over the years. And I would also say that it's at that point the Naturally Boulder junction, and that's where I really found that food brands started really thinking about packaging, and typically it was in a negative light. Everyone had feedback that minimums were high, quality largely inconsistent, and that the packaging operators never entirely focused at solving their problems, and they were more of a pain point than a beneficial asset to a brand and to a company. Around 2018 is where I stepped into that new digital print manufacturer because of the promise of sustainability, right? I was offered a role to join the team as a sales rep. I'd never been in sales before. I'd never been in packaging, but I had the background of the Natural CPG industry, and I knew some of those pain points. Digital print at that time was genuinely more sustainable than conventional printing. No printing plates, less setup waste, and shorter runs. So brands had some flexibility and didn't have to sit on hundreds of 1000s of impressions. That ultimately, if there was a rebrand, they had to throw those away. So inherently more sustainable, and we had fixed how the package was made, but really hadn't fixed what the package was made of, and that's the part that stuck with me. We had made the process better, but the material was still virgin plastic, petroleum based. And that's the gap that I wanted to work on and explore in my next career pivot within Eco Enclose.

Stephanie 6:07
I love that. There's so much there that that people really need to understand, and I love the bringing in the materials because you know I've been in this industry for a long time, and I've seen everything you're talking about. Those materials change, the processes change. There's always been a disconnect between the manufacturer's ability to make the change, the food manufacturer's ability to make the change, and then the packaging manufacturer's ability to offer the change. So one of the things I've seen a lot of is a packaging manufacturer will come out with something really interesting and sustainable, but it takes one to two years for the food manufacturer to adjust their production, and by that time, the packaging manufacturer isn't able to keep that item available because it hasn't been selling. But with all of that said, I think one of the burning questions for me is actually defining what is sustainable packaging. You know, there's different levels of sustainability when we think about the lifestyle and material choices, and especially for early stage brands who are really looking at, you know, when you start, you're like, I don't know, do we put it in a pouch? Do we put it in a container? Do we put it in a box? Do we put it in a jar? And I would love to dig in a little bit to what that really means and the different levels that people could think about in relation to their packaging life cycle.

Peter 7:44
Yeah, great question, and I will put on my my Eco Enclosed hat in terms of our sustainability framework, and I want to mention that as like we are leaders within sustainable packaging. You know, I think there's a lot of education and miseducation that happens around the term sustainable packaging. So my first step is for emerging brands: research and explore, find things that resonate with you. I would start off with let's make sure that your product is in the right sized package. If the product is using less material, it is going to be inherently more sustainable than over-engineered film that maybe your product doesn't need. That would be the first step. Now most of the film, and we can even look behind you in your mirror is or in your screen is a three-layered film, right? And a lot of that is needed for product shelf life. Some things that I see, like when in the frozen aisle, is three-layered films, and ultimately a lot of that package doesn't need to be there because the freezer itself is providing barrier to the product. So that's one thing. Ask questions around: Does my product need X, Y, and Z?Even if that manufacturer is proposing it, I've seen a lot of instances where you know a film is recommended and ultimately doesn't need to be there. And it's the job of my team to look critically at that film and say, well, have we looked at it from this angle? Do you really need all of this material within your your package? Can we take something like a four and a half mil film down to a three and a half mil, or can we take a 22 point board down to an 18 point board? All of those things ultimately are a really good first level in terms of thinking about sustainable packaging.

Stephanie 9:45
I just to say I love those questions, especially for early stage founders that might not know a lot about packaging, is to dig into every detail. So when you get your quote or when the packaging manufacturer gives you info. Dig into every detail, ask every question. What is that? What does that mean? Does it need to be that? That's such great advice.

Peter 10:07
Yeah, and request some samples and actually put your product in the pouch. You know, if there's three or four inches of headspace within the pouch, let's shrink the pouch. Let's try to both save you on cost as well as reduce the waste within your product, and consumers are going to feel a lot better about it too. Getting a product that's full and not partially full.

Stephanie 10:31
And that's the other side of it too is when you ask, you could end up with a lower cost package, so you're saving on your unit economics and making better, more environmental decisions.

Peter 10:44
Exactly, exactly, and that's really the first step. And we can touch briefly on EPR, Extended Producer Responsibility. Probably not as important to the very early stage brands, but one of the ways to reduce your fees would be to down gage and lower some of the material within your product, and therefore saving you on hose fees. I think you know California is probably $5 million at the threshold, so maybe less important to this conversation. But we can still think about it.

Stephanie 11:17
It's still important, I think, for an early stage brand, seeing what those regulations are, even if they don't affect you, and making decisions based on understanding that it helps as guidance. So, you know, just really thinking holistically around that, and that actually for me brings up a question around cost implications because there's always been an impression that more sustainable packaging is more expensive, but I know the pricing is getting more competitive with conventional. But also, one of the things is, as we were just talking about, is making choices that can bring the pricing down. And one of the things I want founders to think about is if you have sustainable packaging, understand how much more product you might be able to sell too. So we don't want to throw your unit economics off, but if you if we're talking a penny here or there, and pennies can make a difference. But if we're talking a penny here or there, but you can sell, you know, significantly more units because you've got that that investment could also be worth it. So help us understand some of the cost implications before jumping.

Peter 12:28
Right into the cost, I would love to echo that sentiment. I think I just saw a Nelson report around consumer behavior, and even though we may be hearing it less in terms of sustainable packaging being an actual lever for buyers, the data would say otherwise. Buyers still are buying and associating, specifically within the natural food segment, sustainable packaging, and a brand taking ownership for their waste. Ultimately, it's the waste, and that can be through a few things. I've worked with brands working on post-consumer recycled content, which Eco Enclose we are a huge believer in taking milk jugs and water bottles out of the stream to be used again for packaging. Same barrier properties, virtual same look and feel as your conventional films will behave the same. That though there is less of it available within the marketplace, so that might have a little bit of extra charge. We would think that as more buying happens, that the raw materials will reduce, right? Unit of economics, so like that is that's at play. That may cost a little bit more. Other things that will likely cost less, as we talk about, is the right-sizing and down-gaging. So I took a local boulder company a few years back from this is a secondary pouch, so this would be individually wrapped product within another pouch, and I took the barrier film out of that secondary pouch, and I also down gaged that film and ultimately saved them 40% on their secondary pouch. So there's a really great example of measurable plastic reduction, very easy to figure out and determine based off of total thickness and cost savings, so win-win, win-win-win, win for the planet as well. So really good example of thinking critically, not just attaching your wagon to a horse. That is, I need post-consumer recycled content. Yes, that's great, but you might just be able to use a ton less plastic and achieve the same results.

Stephanie 14:40
I love that as the example what we were talking about earlier, which is asking the questions and working with your packaging supplier, your suppliers and vendors. They're your partners. Yeah, they're incentivized to make a sale, but the reality is they're actually incentivized with you because if you can, like you just described. If you can get that manufacturer in a better packaging place for themselves, they're going to be happy, and you guys are incentivized together for that success. And so I want to make sure people's mindsets recognize as you talk to vendors, as you look at packaging suppliers. Look at the ones who are partnering with you, not the ones who are selling at you.

Peter 15:26
Yes.

Stephanie 15:27
And that's how you come to those amazing conclusions of, hey, we could get rid of that. Like you said, get rid of that internal barrier. You don't need that. You're spending money on something you don't need that hurts your recyclability. Look at that. You know, you've got four mil. We could go down to three mil, and for everyone new to this, these are thicknesses of plastic and how that thickness is measured. It's, you know, I love that.

Peter 15:52
That's a really great point. Like ask questions to the suppliers. You're going to tell a lot from those conversations when a supplier goes quiet, and you have a very important question around your ethos within sustainability or a sustainable initiative that you have, and the supplier doesn't answer or gives you a very wishy-washy roundabout way of saying yes or no, and then you follow up and say, "Can I get certification around X, Y, and Z? And if they cannot provide that certification, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Stephanie 16:27
Yeah.

Peter 16:28
Maybe not the best fit for you.

Stephanie 16:30
I love that. And trust people who say, you know, that's a good question. I don't know. Let me find out for you. Yes, that's an honest person who's saying, like, hey, I'm not going to try to give you a story. I'm going to find out, and then when I find out, I might even have more info.

Peter 16:46
Yeah, and most packaging companies don't lead with sustainability. You know, they lead with virgin conventional solutions that are probably most cost competitive because a lot of CPG brands are very focused on margin. I get that 100%. I think that is telling though when the sustainability product is so far lower on the totem pole that it does become a novelty product within their portfolio. So ask those questions. See if they're working with other brands that have the same mission behind their brand, or if it's not a true mission ingrained in your company, and it's just something that you'd like to have a you know a stance on, stay on that stance, like stick to it. Ask questions, and you know what? There are tons of suppliers out there that can help you out achieve those goals. Whether that's a primary rigid container that would be like a hard plastic alternative. There are companies doing things within beauty, clean beauty that would be a rigid hard plastic alternative all the way to primary food or secondary shipping packaging. All of those have options where it may be like certified FSC for forestry, and knowing that you're not clear cutting down the forest for your corrugated box, all of those things have implications.

Stephanie 18:12
I love that. I love that, and that actually leads me to what should an early stage brand be thinking about to build sustainability in their thinking from day one and still remain competitive, right? You don't have to give up your unit economics and your competitiveness. These are these don't have to work against each other, but they do have to be thoughtfully managed.

Peter 18:41
Yeah, I think that's a really great question. I think the first thing is how important sustainability is within the framework of the organization, and that's what a founder ultimately has to ideate and put into their mission as a founder and as the ethos of the company. I work with a lot of brands that have various viewpoints of sustainability and what it means to them, their products, their packaging, and ultimately what they want to show the consumer, their marketing. And I'm not here to say that any one of those are better or worse than any other. I think if you're thinking about it, that's the best first step, the thought behind it. There are some other things. What is the package made out of? Do you have the certifications? Are there alternatives that would be more sustainable, environmentally friendly? A lot of times there are. I would also think and consider about what does the end of life look like, and that's a really big thing that I think many brands have some wishful thinking around in terms of you know it's very buzzy to hear compostable packaging in today's CPG environment. That's ultimately something that Eco Enclose has deprioritized based off of end of life within compostable. It's very energy intensive to do sugarcane or corn. A lot of water, a lot of land use, and ultimately a lot of the composting facilities, commercial composting, don't accept compostable materials. So now we're at a junction of that product really isn't providing value or as much value back to the earth as we anticipate. It is going to the landfill. It is filling up the landfill and ultimately biodegrading not how we anticipated. So I think think about it in all sorts of different ways. Ask your suppliers. Ask other founders. Ask your AI bots today and and see what they have to say, you know. And I think that's a a big big thing is if you can be a sponge and take in a lot of different education and viewpoints and ultimately make your own decision rooted in sustainability. That's going to be better than someone who has never thought about it from the jump. So you're off to a good start.

Stephanie 21:01
Yeah, that that's a revelation for me. I had not thought about the impacts of production. Full life cycle, right? We often only think about that. And for everyone listening, that term end of life. This is your packaging life cycle. So if we can be circular, is always the goal. We can't. How does that work? And so, you know, what is the end of life for that package? Does it end up in landfill? Can it be recycled, or does it get composted? Knowing that some of that compostable material takes up so much energy, its environmental footprint then could be so much worse. So being able, I love the idea of the certifications definitely help. Being able to understand and ask about the whole life cycle, how is it produced? You don't just want. So there's a term called greenwashing. I don't know if people still use it. It's an older term. This is when a brand does something that can look like it's green or environmental or or eco responsible, but it's not actually. So let's say I have compostable packaging, but it takes three times the water and land resources and carbon emissions to make it, that is not sustainable. But now, but because it's it's compostable, I can call it that, right? So being able to make sure your brand is not greenwashing is actually looking at that full life cycle and then being able to market that. That's that's new. I love when I learn new things.

Peter 22:43
something that that has stood out with me is that the PCR content is roughly 70 to 90% lower in total carbon emissions than your virgin petroleum based film, right? So we're actively taking those milk jugs, water bottles out of the stream, extruding new film from that, ultimately lowering the cost. Is that still destined for the landfill today? Yes, but it's a lot less lower energy consumption overall,

Stephanie 23:10
right?

Peter 23:10
You know, and and I think something else to frame this whole conversation is progress over perfection.

Stephanie 23:17
Yes,

Peter 23:18
Right, and that's really the name of the game within packaging, like the the infrastructure in the U.S. is where it is today. Will it change in five years? Hopefully, hopefully there's more industrial composting available, and they can accept multiple different products. Hopefully, there's more recycling facilities that can sort flexible films and not have that contaminated with virgin or food within those those streams. If you're not washing out the film, well, then it's contaminated and actually can't be recycled. So start with: Am I even in the right package? Go from there. Go from there. Then think about materials, and then think about all these other things.

Stephanie 24:02
And and really quick, I just want to. I have two quick questions. One is PCR, post consumer recycled content, recycled content. Just so everyone knows. And

Peter 24:14
then there's a different one, PIR, which would be post industrial recycled. So that would be taking material from a factory that has waste and then reusing that. I think both can work in tandem. I think some people prioritize the consumer waste and recycling that versus the industrial waste.

Stephanie 24:36
Yeah,

Peter 24:36
I think there's two ways of thinking about it. I think knowing that you're actually using recycled content is a really good first step, and for working towards recyclability after that.

Stephanie 24:46
Yeah, I love that. And for manufacturers who don't see a path to end of life for their packaging, there's there's new companies like Ridwell and other companies that you can look into. That actually help create the avenue for your packaging. So if you've already started with all of this sustainability that you're talking about, so it's lower energy usage. It's pulled, you know, it's post consumer, post industrial waste. It's pulled it from the landfill, and now instead of it now having an end, you can look into some of these organizations to create a circle, and that's another option too. So, I love that. I love that view of rethinking that compostability and rethinking these other ways to go because, you know, the other thing is whether like for my brand we we couldn't use compostable because we needed an air barrier we had free drain product and so really being able to look at the layers of that of that film and then how that goes that's that's yeah so we're

Peter 25:59
we're big fans of Ridwell at Eco and Close, and I'm actually working with a a company now in Denver that has a ton of unused packages that they can no longer. I think there was a quality issue with it. Not one of our customers, but a partnering customer, and they've got 10s of 1000s of units. And I'm like, I will drive to you, pick that up and get that into Ridwell's hands so that they can do something with it. That's a win-win for everyone.

Stephanie 26:26
I love that. I love that when the economy. You know, a lot of times people think that sustainability goes counter to economic growth, but it actually supports it. And seeing the way that that like eco enclosed, like Ridwell, like these companies are coming and saying, "No, we actually can make make everyone have a much more sustainable, profitable economic process. It's really important message because every time there's opportunity, that's economic opportunity, that's innovative opportunity, that's opportunity for our founders as well.

Peter 27:07
Absolutely, and I think talk to talk to your buyers, talk to your consumers. If it resonates with them, it likely resonates with folks not quite buying your product yet. Meaning sales are going to increase if you can attach you know some some really good marketing around what people are feeling when they not only consume your product but buy your products. Well, that's going to speak volumes.

Stephanie 27:30
That's right. Well, this has just been an amazing conversation. Like I said, I always love when I learn things. I always assume I've got things to learn. Even even having been in this industry for 30 years, is there anything else before we go that that you can think of that an early stage brand should think about, should ask about, should do? I mean, you've already given so much great insight. Any last messaging for for any of our our early stage founders? Yeah,

Peter 27:57
I think I would leave it at progress over perfection, and and make sure that that package, whatever the type is, fits exactly with your product. Start there and then go from there. But progress over perfection. It is packaging. It's tough. It's tough to solve. That's why I'm in the business that I'm in, creating new films that are not only going to better your products, but also better the environments. Something, something to think as we zoom out a little bit is the role that packaging types like paper pouches are going to play in the next couple of years. That's something that we're diligently working on as a barrier-aligned paper pouch.

Stephanie 28:40
I love that. Yeah, I love that. I think pack progress over perfection at every stage for founder, and and that's actually a message I I teach within launch and grow and within our entire food business success coaching and classes programs because you you you can't allow perfection to get in the way of progress, or you'll just never get there. And you get better and better as you go, and that's okay. That's a great way to go. Oh my gosh, Peter, this has just been so amazing. I really appreciate it. Want everyone to walk away with progress over perfection, and we'll have Peter's contact information. That's eco enclose and we'll have all that in our in our show notes, so you can reach out to Peter if you've got more questions. And I just want to thank you and remind everyone to have an amazing week. One of the smartest things you can do as an entrepreneur is invest in a who to help you with the how to speed up your journey and help you skip the line. When you're ready for more support and accountability to finally get this done, you can work with us in two ways. Get a coach all to yourself with one-on-one business coaching, or join the Food Business Success Community, which includes membership inside Fuel, our community of food business founders. That includes monthly live group coaching calls and so much more. It's one of my favorite places to hang out, and I would love to see you there. Go to foodbizsuccess.com to start your journey toward your own food business success.